October 17, 2017, 04:43:21 PM


Author Topic: Catalonia votes for independence  (Read 1324 times)

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2017, 02:35:56 PM »
This may come as a shock to you: Some world events have absolutely nothing to do with Russia.
Congratulations! With that closing sentence you managed to deeply insult both sides of the argument at once!
 :laugh:

Lol. I was actually thinking that as I hit 'post'. I'm not sure who is going to be more upset- Life Improvement/gogators! or Aurata?

Strange that the two people who object so strenuously to any claim of Aurata's that Russia is powerful seem to believe that $100k of facebook ads can swing an election, making them easily the most powerful nation on Earth. I guess Aurata was right that our country is doomed and that Russia can just waltz all over the Earth as it pleases and we're helpless to resist.


Or you know, it's possible the Russians aren't that powerful and that both extremes in this argument are ridiculous. 

Offline gogators!

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 02:53:43 PM »
This may come as a shock to you: Some world events have absolutely nothing to do with Russia.
Congratulations! With that closing sentence you managed to deeply insult both sides of the argument at once!
 :laugh:

Lol. I was actually thinking that as I hit 'post'. I'm not sure who is going to be more upset- Life Improvement/gogators! or Aurata?

Strange that the two people who object so strenuously to any claim of Aurata's that Russia is powerful seem to believe that $100k of facebook ads can swing an election, making them easily the most powerful nation on Earth. I guess Aurata was right that our country is doomed and that Russia can just waltz all over the Earth as it pleases and we're helpless to resist.


Or you know, it's possible the Russians aren't that powerful and that both extremes in this argument are ridiculous.
The amount of money spent doesn't necessarily equal the influence said ads could have had. Other factors are at play. Isn't that what you always say?

Don't forget the $250K spent on Twitter.

And who's saying it "swung the election," besides you, that is? You start all your posts with the same strategy of hyperbole, greatly exaggerating the comments of other posters all so you can play the moderate.

But you make it all so transparent. i think you could learn a thing or two from the russkis.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 03:08:41 PM »
The amount of money spent doesn't necessarily equal the influence said ads could have had. Other factors are at play. Isn't that what you always say?

Don't forget the $250K spent on Twitter.

And who's saying it "swung the election," besides you, that is? You start all your posts with the same strategy of hyperbole, greatly exaggerating the comments of other posters all so you can play the moderate.

But you make it all so transparent. i think you could learn a thing or two from the russkis.
So you're admitting it didn't swing the election? Thank you.

$350k in total advertising. Truly massive interference.  :rolleyes:

As of October 18, well before the final push, Clinton has spent $132 million dollars, including online advertising.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/team-clinton-has-spent-70-total-ad-money-16-race-n668331

But yes, the Russians are such advertising geniuses that $350k worth of ads were the clincher. This is why Madison Ave. is failing and everyone is running to Russia to do their advertising.

Except that's not happening, because the Russians DON'T have some magical advertising formula. This Russian ad stuff is nonsense and irrelevant.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 05:14:12 PM »
This may come as a shock to you: Some world events have absolutely nothing to do with Russia.
Congratulations! With that closing sentence you managed to deeply insult both sides of the argument at once!
 :laugh:

Lol. I was actually thinking that as I hit 'post'. I'm not sure who is going to be more upset- Life Improvement/gogators! or Aurata?

Strange that the two people who object so strenuously to any claim of Aurata's that Russia is powerful seem to believe that $100k of facebook ads can swing an election, making them easily the most powerful nation on Earth. I guess Aurata was right that our country is doomed and that Russia can just waltz all over the Earth as it pleases and we're helpless to resist.


Or you know, it's possible the Russians aren't that powerful and that both extremes in this argument are ridiculous.

a) we get it, you hate America, as shown by your slavish devotion to an incompetent anti-American chaos candidate like Trump.

b) I can't wait to see the crying from your side when China or North Korea or Bulgaria or whatever uses dirty tricks against the GOP in the next several elections. You guys and your Russian buddies have shown that it's possible for a hostile country to interfere in a US election, and you've spent the last year loudly claiming that you're perfectly fine with this. I'm sure you'll change your tune when it's done against the GOP.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2017, 05:38:46 PM »
a) we get it, you hate America, as shown by your slavish devotion to an incompetent anti-American chaos candidate like Trump.

You don't agree with me, therefore you hate America. Ridiculous when conservatives use that logic and same with liberals.

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b) I can't wait to see the crying from your side when China or North Korea or Bulgaria or whatever uses dirty tricks against the GOP in the next several elections. You guys and your Russian buddies have shown that it's possible for a hostile country to interfere in a US election, and you've spent the last year loudly claiming that you're perfectly fine with this. I'm sure you'll change your tune when it's done against the GOP.

This is simply going to be a modern fact of life in the 21st century. All nations will be able to influence all other nations when it comes to their elections, thanks to social media. You can either ban social media or compete in the free marketplace of ideas and trust that your locally-tailored message, likely outspending their efforts by several hundred times and combined with the fact that nations that oppose each other will cancel each other out, will prove to be more effective.

I mean if you want delusional propaganda- how many on the left think Trump is Hitler? How many of the dire predictions have turned out to be true? About as many as the fantastical promises of Trump that some in his base believed. Turns out both are wrong- Mexicans aren't getting deported en masse.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2017, 07:13:45 PM »
So you will have zero problem if let's say China or Mexico use hacking, leaks, fake news, and internet ad buys to succesfully damage the GOP in a major election?

Offline gogators!

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 12:24:13 AM »
The amount of money spent doesn't necessarily equal the influence said ads could have had. Other factors are at play. Isn't that what you always say?

Don't forget the $250K spent on Twitter.

And who's saying it "swung the election," besides you, that is? You start all your posts with the same strategy of hyperbole, greatly exaggerating the comments of other posters all so you can play the moderate.

But you make it all so transparent. i think you could learn a thing or two from the russkis.
So you're admitting it didn't swing the election? Thank you.

$350k in total advertising. Truly massive interference.  :rolleyes:

As of October 18, well before the final push, Clinton has spent $132 million dollars, including online advertising.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/team-clinton-has-spent-70-total-ad-money-16-race-n668331

But yes, the Russians are such advertising geniuses that $350k worth of ads were the clincher. This is why Madison Ave. is failing and everyone is running to Russia to do their advertising.

Except that's not happening, because the Russians DON'T have some magical advertising formula. This Russian ad stuff is nonsense and irrelevant.
Didn't say either way. But they more than likely influenced it. We'll know more when Mueller is finished.

Don't forget the 21 states whose polling systems were hacked.

There's nothing magical to viral advertising. Your alt-right and conspiracy types will run with that fake news stuff until they drop from exhaustion or the meth runs out.

Quote
Facebook and Google promoted false news stories claiming that the shooter who killed more than 50 people in Las Vegas was a Democrat who opposed Donald Trump. The misidentification spread rapidly from dark corners of the internet to mainstream platforms just hours after hundreds were injured at a festival near the Mandalay Bay casino, the latest example of fake news polluting social media amid a breaking news story.

Just one example of how it works, since you don't seem to understand it. Don't forget, you believed Kenyan Olympic training was state of the art just because they had a web page. How much you figure that cost?

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 01:18:22 PM »
So you will have zero problem if let's say China or Mexico use hacking, leaks, fake news, and internet ad buys to succesfully damage the GOP in a major election?

It's not a question of being mad or not, it's a question of what WILL happen. Inevitably, with the internet, other countries are going to influence other countries. Some might benefit the GOP/Dems, others will hurt, and it might change with each election depending on the nominees.

Didn't say either way. But they more than likely influenced it. We'll know more when Mueller is finished.
Don't forget the 21 states whose polling systems were hacked.

But to what degree did they influence it, if they did at all? Remember, Russian ads weren't the only ads. Clinton outspent everyone significantly on ads.

And no votes were changed by the hacking.

And this magical influential ad, what was it? Do you have an example of what Russian ad influenced people?

You want an ad that influenced people? I've already mentioned this and I'll say it again- it's the 3 Chrysler Super Bowl ads entitled "Imported from Detroit", "Halftime in America", and "God Made a Farmer". THOSE influenced people. They took place long before the election but each one helped set the stage for what happened in this election. As someone from Michigan, I can tell you that all 3 of those had a profound effect and were shared and commented all over Michigan and other Rust Belt states and in the "Heartland" and they encapsulated Trumpism in their own way.

Quote
There's nothing magical to viral advertising. Your alt-right and conspiracy types will run with that fake news stuff until they drop from exhaustion or the meth runs out.

Those people were already voting Trump, with or without Russian ads, and would have just shared some dumb infowars link instead.

Quote
Just one example of how it works, since you don't seem to understand it.
What you don't understand is that those things get shared regardless of Russians being involved or not. As I said, if they aren't sharing Russian conspiracy theories, they're sharing Alex Jones. They were already voting Trump and were already highly motivated.

Quote
Don't forget, you believed Kenyan Olympic training was state of the art just because they had a web page. How much you figure that cost?

No, I said that Africans aren't the backwards, running barefoot, non-science using people that they get stereotyped as. They have universities and labs and their governments invest in tech and sports science.

Maybe you believe that bigoted nonsense, I don't.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2017, 02:22:24 PM »
So basically no acknowledgment of the hypocritical wall of tears coming when a hostile foreign country hacks the GOP.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2017, 02:51:47 PM »
So basically no acknowledgment of the hypocritical wall of tears coming when a hostile foreign country hacks the GOP.

Oh I'm sure there will be plenty on the right who will hypocritically whine and moan when it happens to them, which it will. And there will be plenty on the left who shrug. And there will be those of us who will evaluate the extent of the interference and decide whether it truly had any impact.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2017, 01:17:46 AM »
Are you going to tell your fellow redhats to shut up because it's "no big deal" when China hacks Trump's orange ass?

Gotta love how Trumpanzees have given up and freely admit Russia screwed with the election, after spending months denying there was any hacking or collusion going on. But it's "no big deal" to have a hostile foreign power saddle the US with the dumbest, most incompetent, most divisive candidate possible.

Offline gogators!

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2017, 11:21:47 AM »
So basically no acknowledgment of the hypocritical wall of tears coming when a hostile foreign country hacks the GOP.

Oh I'm sure there will be plenty on the right who will hypocritically whine and moan when it happens to them, which it will. And there will be plenty on the left who shrug. And there will be those of us who will evaluate the extent of the interference and decide whether it truly had any impact.
Such an easy acceptance of corruption, even the mediocre now lack all conviction.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2017, 01:51:24 PM »
Are you going to tell your fellow redhats to shut up because it's "no big deal" when China hacks Trump's orange ass?

Gotta love how Trumpanzees have given up and freely admit Russia screwed with the election, after spending months denying there was any hacking or collusion going on. But it's "no big deal" to have a hostile foreign power saddle the US with the dumbest, most incompetent, most divisive candidate possible.

Let's see, I've already told the "red-hats" that they've got Colin Kaepernick wrong. I also dismiss their stupid Las Vegas conspiracy theories. And I've regularly sparred with Aurata over his claims of some dominant Russian military that would wipe the floor with the U.S. So yes, as an independent thinker I do disagree. I've even said I thought Obama was okay and that single-payer would be a good thing!

Russia "screwed" with the election to no effect. It's the equivalent of some fan yelling "BRICK!!!!!" while Shaq shoots a free-throw and blaming his miss on that specific fan, despite 1000 other fans yelling and cheering and Shaw sucking at free throws. I guess technically he interfered, but only an idiot would blame that fan for Shaq missing.

Anyone who believe that Trump got to where he is because of RUSSIA!!!!!! is an idiot. Might as well blame the Freemasons.

Again- Michigan Primary, well before people were screaming about this Russia crap, the Repbulicans get way more primary votes than the Dems, Bernie stuns Clinton after being predicted to lose by 15-20%. That was the loss right there.

I'm sure it was Russia that lost you a bunch of state legislatures and governorships. The writing was one the wall.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2017, 01:52:21 PM »
Such an easy acceptance of corruption, even the mediocre now lack all conviction.
Politics and international realpolitik involve corruption. I'm shocked. Might as well shake a fist at gravity.

Russia and the U.S. have been trying to influence each other since the days of Trotsky.

Offline gogators!

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2017, 02:52:58 PM »
Such an easy acceptance of corruption, even the mediocre now lack all conviction.
Politics and international realpolitik involve corruption. I'm shocked. Might as well shake a fist at gravity.

Russia and the U.S. have been trying to influence each other since the days of Trotsky.
So many excuses, so little time--right?

BTW, can you recount some of your firsthand real-life experience in "international realpolitik'?

Offline Epistemology

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2017, 04:29:14 PM »
Russia's main tactic (I doubt you could really call it a grand strategy, as the little Giftzwerg that heads up the Russian state goes after anyone that personally offends him, like Trump) is to influence things over social media, rather than actually overtly interfere in western democracy. I can't speak for the US, but they've got a fairly complex web of connections across European far right factions and groups. They've embedded RT quite deeply and numerous far right news sites (to give an example - Zerohedge, but I wouldn't put it past Breitbart either to be honest) have links to the Russian state. Their reach is largely determined by people who don't trust mainstream media sharing their conspiracy theories over the internet with their friends, who then share with their friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it alone is the deciding factor, but it snowballs pretty quickly once it has started rolling.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2017, 05:59:42 PM »
Russia's main tactic (I doubt you could really call it a grand strategy, as the little Giftzwerg that heads up the Russian state goes after anyone that personally offends him, like Trump) is to influence things over social media, rather than actually overtly interfere in western democracy. I can't speak for the US, but they've got a fairly complex web of connections across European far right factions and groups. They've embedded RT quite deeply and numerous far right news sites (to give an example - Zerohedge, but I wouldn't put it past Breitbart either to be honest) have links to the Russian state. Their reach is largely determined by people who don't trust mainstream media sharing their conspiracy theories over the internet with their friends, who then share with their friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it alone is the deciding factor, but it snowballs pretty quickly once it has started rolling.

Whatever Russia is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the market reach and influence of the MSM (FOXNews included).

I don't think Russia got the ball rolling on any of this. I think the failed War in Iraq, decades of outsourcing under NAFTA, and the 2008 financial panic were the root causes.

But hey, maybe people are right. It was a few Russian news stories on Zerohedge that got us here.

Offline Epistemology

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2017, 06:18:21 PM »
Russia's main tactic (I doubt you could really call it a grand strategy, as the little Giftzwerg that heads up the Russian state goes after anyone that personally offends him, like Trump) is to influence things over social media, rather than actually overtly interfere in western democracy. I can't speak for the US, but they've got a fairly complex web of connections across European far right factions and groups. They've embedded RT quite deeply and numerous far right news sites (to give an example - Zerohedge, but I wouldn't put it past Breitbart either to be honest) have links to the Russian state. Their reach is largely determined by people who don't trust mainstream media sharing their conspiracy theories over the internet with their friends, who then share with their friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it alone is the deciding factor, but it snowballs pretty quickly once it has started rolling.

Whatever Russia is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the market reach and influence of the MSM (FOXNews included).

I don't think Russia got the ball rolling on any of this. I think the failed War in Iraq, decades of outsourcing under NAFTA, and the 2008 financial panic were the root causes.

But hey, maybe people are right. It was a few Russian news stories on Zerohedge that got us here.

The Echo chamber effect. For what its worth, the Russian backed media told people on the right exactly what they wanted to hear. Throw social media into that and you've got all the ingredients needed to create polarised echo chambers that drive people  further towards radical partisanship and a rejection of moderation. Is it a cause of the current crap situation? No. Its more like a lens that helped give focus to the anger of already pissed off and angry people.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2017, 01:21:46 PM »
The Echo chamber effect. For what its worth, the Russian backed media told people on the right exactly what they wanted to hear. Throw social media into that and you've got all the ingredients needed to create polarised echo chambers that drive people  further towards radical partisanship and a rejection of moderation. Is it a cause of the current crap situation? No. Its more like a lens that helped give focus to the anger of already pissed off and angry people.
For one, some of the facebook ads promoted left-leaning issues. Some supported BLM. Did BLM become an issue because of Russia? NO. It became an issue because cops were killing unarmed black people.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/26/facebook-russia-trump-sanders-stein-243172

As far as the right-leaning ones, there was already so much of that to begin with, domestically produced. I mean you had Alex Jones and all his crap already out there.

They've revealed some of the ads. You could put them in a lineup generated by Americans who support Trump and visit reddit.com/thedonald and you couldn't pick them out of the many 10s of thousands that people made over the year.

Sorry, but they had zero influence. I know people on the left DESPERATELY want that to be true but it just isn't.

I say this, the Dems are going to have a real hard time if they just blame Russia and use it as an excuse and refuse to learn the real lessons of the election. Even worse, if you run the next campaign with RUSSIA!!!! as a major issue.

I mean, why bother actually talking about Trump's failure to pass a tax plan or come up with a construction jobs initiative. No, it's more Russia!!!! and calling people a racist. That's a winner.

Offline Epistemology

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Re: Catalonia votes for independence
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2017, 03:15:07 PM »
Oh look. A strawman.  Who said anything about ads? Or even that they convince people?
You don't understand the concept of an echo chamber. People read what they want to believe and Russian state media provided that. Social media is a factor not because of the ads, but because people *share* the content that they want to believe to be true. If someone believes a Russkie article about Hilary being bent, then its because they already believe that she is, and this just provides them with a justification for their belief. And therein lies the problem with biased social media news. It radicalizes. It polarises. It creates echo chambers and rational debate dies. Does this happen on the left too? Sure it does, but that's just you engaging in your classic whataboutery deflection again.

Your issue seems to be that you think 'to convince' and 'to influence' are the same. They are not.

The statement:
"Its more like a lens that helped give focus to the anger of already pissed off and angry people,"
is uncontroversial because that's exactly what happened. Already angry people were made even angrier and became radicalised in their own echo chamber
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 03:16:49 PM by Epistemology »
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

 

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