November 24, 2017, 03:24:10 PM

Author Topic: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.  (Read 11591 times)

Online Arabin

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #300 on: September 13, 2017, 11:46:45 AM »
Wow! So you admit the South fought for slavery. It's just that you see nothing wrong with that.



The problem is that you lack the ability to read and comprehend at a collegiate level and to engage in nuanced academic discourse, thus you misinterpret what people say and turn it into a simplistic caricature, possibly because you lack the intellectual capacity to process complex concepts- which has become painfully clear to many people on this board, even those that disagree with me and side with you.

Struth I never did learn me letters, guv. It ain't my fault. I'm a simple  flower seller from the East End, I am.

I dream to reach such heights of intellectual probity and panache. I can only aspire to emulate the faintest wisps of your rhetorical mastery.

In face of such humble genius, I can but bow.

Nay, I can but weep.

Offline jddavis7

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #301 on: September 13, 2017, 12:04:55 PM »
Imagine reviving a two week old thread because you thought of some more lies to shout and want people to listen to you. People who have never agreed with you and never will.

Online Arabin

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #302 on: September 13, 2017, 12:12:46 PM »
Imagine reviving a two week old thread because you thought of some more lies to shout and want people to listen to you. People who have never agreed with you and never will.

Don't be harsh. They've lost the Daily Stormer to the dark web and now the paywall crisis. I think they want to get all the trolling they can get done while people still use this site.

This time next week, it's back to redpill subreddits and rubbing their crotch while browsing mangapanda.com

Online kyndo

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #303 on: September 13, 2017, 12:58:51 PM »
The north wasn't fighting against slavery. How could they be when on the very eve of the war the congress and incoming president were making it unconstitutional to abolish slavery?
   The Corwin Compromise would make it unconstitutional for federal interference in State rights (including the permissibility of slavery), but what it didn't affect was the prohibition on spreading slavery to new territories. The southern states were pushing west just as the northern ones were, and were hell-bent on propagating their slave-based society. This is why the South rejected the Corwin amendment and went on to disunion. When this happened, the Corwin amendment was immediately pushed onto the rubbish heap. It was a half-measure (at best) meant to keep pro-slavery border states from leaving. Considering that Lincoln's entire platform was based on emancipation, I doubt that that amendment would have lasted very long even if it had succeeded in preventing disunion.

How could the south be fighting for slavery, when the north wasn't fighting against it?
     Even if your supposition were true, which it obviously isn't, the South was fighting for the right to propagate slavery in new territories, something that the Corwin amendment deliberately did not address.

The real reason was economic. The north did not want to give up the high tarrifs and economic policies that the south objected to.

      "The tariff issue was and is sometimes cited–long after the war–by Lost Cause historians and neo-Confederate apologists. In 1860–61 none of the groups that proposed compromises to head off secession raised the tariff issue. Pamphleteers (North and South) rarely mentioned the tariff,and when some did, they were generally writing for a foreign audience."

    I looked up some info on how the tariff issue affected secession, and the sites that tended to play it up were generally far-right (such as this one). This seems like pretty good corroboration of the above quote.
     Economics was definitely important, but tariffs were a very minor part of it. The proposed tariffs were only a symptom of the intense competition between the conflicting systems of industry: mechanisation in the north versus slavery in the south. In addition, the new tariffs only restored the economic balance between north and south that the previous democratic administrations (all pro-slave southern based) had skewed in favour of the South, which isn't something rational people secede over.

    Blaming the war on slavery was the way the court historians used morality to cover up Lincolns naked aggression. Demonizing the enemy with moral language works for the victor. And this is still a strong feature of politics.
  Yes. That's how we all picture ol' Abe: naked and frothing at the mouth.  :smiley:
    But seriously, it was pretty clear that the first military actions were the seizure of federal forts and forces in the pro-slave states. Demonizing works equally well for lost cause revisionists, apparently. Bullshit media isn't exactly a new thing.


Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #304 on: September 13, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
The north wasn't fighting against slavery. How could they be when on the very eve of the war the congress and incoming president were making it unconstitutional to abolish slavery?

How could the south be fighting for slavery, when the north wasn't fighting against it?

The real reason was economic. The north did not want to give up the high tarrifs and economic policies that the south objected to.

Blaming the war on slavery was the way the court historians used morality to cover up Lincolns naked aggression. Demonizing the enemy with moral language works for the victor.

And this is still a strong feature of politics.

This ignores every single event in the run up to the war- from the events I previously discussed to more immediate ones like Bleeding Kansas and John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. It ignores the fact that the single most popular book in the world, besides the Bible, was Uncle Tom's Cabin which had a profound effect on its readers.

The reason the North and the South fought over Union and States' Rights was the States' Right to have slavery.

But the primary flaw in the "Not because of slavery" argument is this- It ignores the fact that millions of people could look out at race-based chattel slavery, in a country that was a democracy founded on the principle of "All Men are Created Equal", combined with the traditions of Christianity, and global opinion against slavery, and NOT believe that it was a vile institution that they were morally opposed to at a most basic level.

People, even back then, were appalled at the institution.

Now, as I said, not everyone fought for or against slavery. You get 100 people, you'll get 100 different reasons for fighting. But the cause of the war was slavery.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #305 on: September 13, 2017, 02:52:30 PM »

Struth I never did learn me letters, guv. It ain't my fault. I'm a simple  flower seller from the East End, I am.

I dream to reach such heights of intellectual probity and panache. I can only aspire to emulate the faintest wisps of your rhetorical mastery.

In face of such humble genius, I can but bow.

Nay, I can but weep.

For effs sake dude, no one is asking you to be Cicero, I'm simply asking you to try and read things with a little nuance, not go with the first thought that jumps in your head and sticking with it, and actually reading thoroughly.

You've mentioned before how my posts are "too long". This suggests that you lack patience and attention span, which strongly correlates with poor reading comprehension and poor critical thinking. In those "too long" posts are sentences and concepts that provide important background, nuance, and qualification to what I'm writing.

Also, you're juvenile replies are really getting tiresome. Either come with facts and some halfway-decent debate/discussion or stop bothering.

Aurata may be wrong on this issue, but at least he's engaging in a half-way mature, educated discussion. I'd rather debate him being wrong in that manner than deal with the absolute nothing you are bringing.

Online Arabin

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #306 on: September 13, 2017, 03:04:13 PM »

Struth I never did learn me letters, guv. It ain't my fault. I'm a simple  flower seller from the East End, I am.

I dream to reach such heights of intellectual probity and panache. I can only aspire to emulate the faintest wisps of your rhetorical mastery.

In face of such humble genius, I can but bow.

Nay, I can but weep.

For effs sake dude, no one is asking you to be Cicero, I'm simply asking you to try and read things with a little nuance, not go with the first thought that jumps in your head and sticking with it, and actually reading thoroughly.

You've mentioned before how my posts are "too long". This suggests that you lack patience and attention span, which strongly correlates with poor reading comprehension and poor critical thinking. In those "too long" posts are sentences and concepts that provide important background, nuance, and qualification to what I'm writing.

Also, you're juvenile replies are really getting tiresome. Either come with facts and some halfway-decent debate/discussion or stop bothering.

Aurata may be wrong on this issue, but at least he's engaging in a half-way mature, educated discussion. I'd rather debate him being wrong in that manner than deal with the absolute nothing you are bringing.

Yet here you are.

Offline Aurata

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #307 on: September 13, 2017, 10:09:31 PM »
I assume it was a last ditch effort to entice the slave states that bordered the Union from seceding. Obviously it didn't work.

Obviously the north wanted to keep the south in the union far more than it cared about slavery.

In fact they so didn't care about slavery, that they were prepared to make it irrevocable, just to keep the southerners on board. Hardly the enlightened humanitarians that they're portrayed as.

Do you really think that northerners were prepared to send hundreds of thousands of their sons to die for some black people that only a few days earlier they were prepared to condemn to indefinite slavery?

But you're still convinced that northerners fought the civil war to end slavery?

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keeping economic and independent political power was why the southernmost states seceded, formed the Confederacy, Would you agree with that slightly broader explanation?

Yeah thats reasonable. Washington was up to its usual tricks of subverting the constitution and centralizing all the power with themselves. They're still at it today.

This is the given reason that southerners gave for fighting. It was about the constitution. Not slavery  :rolleyes:

 
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and got their miserable slaving arses kicked.

Now you've bought into the whole morality propaganda.

The winners, who write the history books, always try to demonize the losers and present themselves as holding the moral high ground.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

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bent on propagating their slave-based society...this is why the South rejected the Corwin amendment and went on to disunion.

now you're making zero sense   ;D

If their real concern was maintaining slavery, the south would not have turned down the constitutional protection of slavery offered them on a silver platter. Clearly, for the South the issue was not slavery.

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got their slave-owning as*es kicked

hate to burst your self-righteous moralistic bubble, but only a small minority of southerners owned slaves.

Diaries and letters of soldiers fighting for the confederacy and for the union provide zero evidence that they were fighting for or against slavery. Instead, it reveals that they were fighting over  different understandings of the constitution.

Read What They Fought For, 1861-1865 James M. McPherson

The whole slavery nonsense is a post-war propaganda narrative.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 10:13:23 PM by Aurata »
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Offline Aurata

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #308 on: September 13, 2017, 10:34:28 PM »
This ignores every single event in the run up to the war- from the events I previously discussed to more immediate ones like ...


The stated purpose of the war had nothing to do with slavery.

Here is the actual US senate War aims resolution:

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This war is not waged in any spirit of oppression, or for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, or purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those Southern states, but to defend the Constitution, and to preserve the Union”

Even Lincoln himself stated that:

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“My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”

He wrote that in a letter to the New York tribune: August 22nd 1822.

Washingtons endless self-serving propaganda machine has protected americans from reality for a looong time.
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Online Life Improvement

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #309 on: September 14, 2017, 07:22:08 AM »
He wrote that in a letter to the New York tribune: August 22nd 1822.

False and false. Wasn't in 1822 (when Abe was 12), and neither was it in the New York Tribune.

http://housedivided.dickinson.edu/sites/lincoln/letter-to-horace-greeley-august-22-1862/

Better to look at the pragmatism of Lincoln than take one quote out of context and infer something nefarious.

Online kyndo

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #310 on: September 14, 2017, 07:58:04 AM »
I assume it was a last ditch effort to entice the slave states that bordered the Union from seceding. Obviously it didn't work.

Obviously the north wanted to keep the south in the union far more than it cared about slavery.

Well...duh. Keeping a hand on the reins of power... that's what politicians do. But -- now here's a crazy idea! -- did you know that things can be done for more than a single reason? I understand that it makes the world a bit harder for people who want to view everything in black and white, but it's true!
So yes, i agree that maintaining the union was a huge priority, but that doesn't negate that the *reason* the south was so disaffected was due to the north's abolitionist stance.
And by the way, that tariff garbage is pure drivel: it was a factor in the south's secession, but in no way the central one. Folk who try to make it out to be are lost-cause revisionists.

In fact they so didn't care about slavery, that they were prepared to make it irrevocable, just to keep the southerners on board. Hardly the enlightened humanitarians that they're portrayed as.
This has already been addressed. Several times. Scroll up.

Do you really think that northerners were prepared to send hundreds of thousands of their sons to die for some black people that only a few days earlier they were prepared to condemn to indefinite slavery?
People have been willing to send hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths for the most ridiculously tiny bit of religious minutia so it doesn't seem strange to me that some would go to war to impose ONE OF THEIR COUNTRY'S FOUNDING PRINCIPLES on a bunch of folk who are dead set on balancing said country in a constitutionally illegal secession.
Also, if you want to read about some dumb wars, here's an interesting list.

But you're still convinced that northerners fought the civil war to end slavery?
That was one of the main reasons, yes. You haven't pointed out any logical reason to believe otherwise.

Quote
keeping economic and independent political power was why the southernmost states seceded, formed the Confederacy, Would you agree with that slightly broader explanation?
This is the given reason that southerners gave for fighting. It was about the constitution. Not slavery  :rolleyes:
Interesting, because the Southerner's secession was unconstitutional by any reckoning (even by present day Confederate wanna-bes).
Southerners seceded because of perceived (and real) infringement on state-rights: the democratically elected federal government (that was elected even despite the fact that the slaves themselves couldn't vote)  wanted to make it illegal to own slaves. The two were intrinsically related.

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and got their miserable slaving arses kicked.
Now you've bought into the whole morality propaganda.
The winners, who write the history books, always try to demonize the losers and present themselves as holding the moral high ground.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I agree. The winners do write history... but sometimes the story doesn't need embellishments. This was one of those cases.

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bent on propagating their slave-based society...this is why the South rejected the Corwin amendment and went on to disunion.

now you're making zero sense   ;D

If their real concern was maintaining slavery, the south would not have turned down the constitutional protection of slavery offered them on a silver platter. Clearly, for the South the issue was not slavery.
This was already addressed. It wasn't enough: Southern states wanted to propagate slavery into new territories, which the north forbade, and the appeasement didn't address this issue.

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got their slave-owning as*es kicked

hate to burst your self-righteous moralistic bubble, but only a small minority of southerners owned slaves.
And that small, wealthy, politically powerful minority had their slave-owning butts kicked, yes.

Diaries and letters of soldiers fighting for the confederacy and for the union provide zero evidence that they were fighting for or against slavery. Instead, it reveals that they were fighting over  different understandings of the constitution.
Yes. Like others have mentioned, soldiers and polititians often have different reasons for fighting a war. Amazing!
And fighting for the sacrosanctness of state-rights was, in the case of the American Civil War, the same as fighting to uphold the right to own slaves. Again, this was already mentioned several times.

The whole slavery nonsense is a post-war propaganda narrative.
Thousands of scholars, both American and not, would disagree. But I respect your right to express your opinions: they're often pretty thought provoking. For example, I've learned more about the Civil War in the last few day than I ever wanted. Thanks, I guess.  :undecided:
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:07:05 AM by kyndo »

Offline Aurata

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #311 on: September 14, 2017, 09:48:17 PM »
Wasn't in 1822 (when Abe was 12), and neither was it in the New York Tribune.

Who cares if I got one digit in the date wrong? Its the words of Abraham Lincoln to the nation.

Quote from: kyndo
Lincoln's entire platform was based on emancipation

 :laugh:

You guys make me laugh.

Let me bring you into reality for a moment. Try reading the collected works of Abraham Lincoln.
https://www.amazon.com/Collected-Works-Abraham-Lincoln/dp/143447710X

Lincoln was a lifelong advocate of the deportation of black people from America. He was a manager of the Illinois colonization society, which used tax funding to deport blacks from that state. Lets see what he had to say about blacks:

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“Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and . . . favorable to . . . our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime” (CW, vol. II, p. 409).

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“Free them [i.e. the slaves] and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals” (CW, vol. II, p. 256.

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“What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races” (CW, vol. II, p. 521).

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“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races . . . . I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary” (CW, vol. III, p, 16).

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“I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . . I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people” (CW, vol. III, pp. 145-146).

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“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state [Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes” (CW, vol. III, p. 146).

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“Senator Douglas remarked . . . that . . . this government was made for the white people and not for the negroes. Why, in point of mere fact, I think so too” (CW, vol. II, p. 281)

Thats before we even get onto his inaugural address, delivered March 4th 1861 (just before the civil war) which is probably the most powerful defence of slavery ever made by an American politician.


You don't have a clue kyndo. or LI. neither of you.

You both exemplify a generation of americans brainwashed by Washington, that have forgotten how to think independently and cling to the most simplistic and emotive explanations.


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Online gogators!

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #312 on: September 15, 2017, 09:34:16 AM »
People change.

Now your heroes--Lenin, Stalin, Putin--they didn't. They stayed the course--executing, slaughtering, subjugating, starving, corrupting. Good times for the Russian people.

But Lincoln wasn't a sociopath. He was a thoughtful leader whose thinking on slavery changed.

Can you dig it, errata?

Online kyndo

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #313 on: September 15, 2017, 11:51:51 AM »
[Long list of one liners lifted out of historical documents]
I envy your talent at dredging up out-of context quotes!


You don't have a clue kyndo. or LI. neither of you.

You both exemplify a generation of americans brainwashed by Washington, that have forgotten how to think independently and cling to the most simplistic and emotive explanations.
I'm not American, and you have no idea what generation I belong to. Also, sweeping generalizations such as these are usually made when a person has lost an argument and doesn't want to admit it.
But thanks for the entertainment!  :smiley:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:53:26 AM by kyndo »

Offline Aurata

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #314 on: September 15, 2017, 11:40:10 PM »
I'm not American, and you have no idea what generation I belong to. Also, sweeping generalizations such as these are usually made when a person has lost an argument and doesn't want to admit it.
But thanks for the entertainment!  :smiley:


You ignored multiple first hand evidences in order to cling to your preconceptions.. which are based on an unfounded and indefensible media narrative.

You were defeated on every point.

Shocked at the realization of the depth of your ignorance, you employed smilies and glib comments as a cover to protect your fragile psychological state.. before running away.
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Online kyndo

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #315 on: September 16, 2017, 10:48:16 AM »
I'm not American, and you have no idea what generation I belong to. Also, sweeping generalizations such as these are usually made when a person has lost an argument and doesn't want to admit it.
But thanks for the entertainment!  :smiley:


You ignored multiple first hand evidences in order to cling to your preconceptions.. which are based on an unfounded and indefensible media narrative.

You were defeated on every point.

Shocked at the realization of the depth of your ignorance, you employed smilies and glib comments as a cover to protect your fragile psychological state.. before running away.
If it makes you happy to believe that, then who am I to argue otherwise! Be happy, comrade!

Offline hangook77

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #316 on: September 16, 2017, 06:03:20 PM »
Identity politics are a distraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1r9_tgRgRk

I sort of identify democratic but like most folks get sick of this stuff. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3-uNxmNj5o
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 06:09:06 PM by hangook77 »

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #317 on: September 18, 2017, 05:37:15 AM »
Identity politics are a distraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1r9_tgRgRk

I sort of identify democratic but like most folks get sick of this stuff. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3-uNxmNj5o

Tell us a time in US history when identity politics did not play a major role in society.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #318 on: September 18, 2017, 09:58:31 AM »
Aurata, if slavery was not the cause, then how would explain the murder of Elijah P. Lovejoy, the popularity of Uncle Tom's Cabin, the large numbers of abolitionist societies, the outlawing of the slave trade by much of the rest of the Protestant world for moral and spiritual reasons, Bleeding Kansas, John Brown, Preston Brooks & Charles Sumner, the fact that today nearly everyone regards slavery as morally repugnant, and all the other signs that the country was coming apart over slavery?

People did not start killing each other in Kansas because of tariffs, navigation of the Mississippi, and states rights. They did so because of whether Kansas was to be free or slave.

John Brown's raid was an explosive event. The South seriously believed that some sort of uprising/Northern invasion was coming and thus began to turn their state militias (basically an excuse to get drunk and shoot guns on the weekend) into something approaching actual military units.

If it wasn't about slavery, the South would and should have gladly set all of its slaves free from the moment the war began so as to ensure diplomatic recognition from Great Britain and France as slavery was the major impediment to that recognition, particularly in Britain where supporting a slave-holding nation would be seen as morally repugnant. Instead, they kept their slaves.

Offline cyrusbrooks

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Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #319 on: September 18, 2017, 11:55:16 AM »
This is a very good article about judging historical figures by today's standards... http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23772194