October 21, 2017, 01:31:49 AM


Author Topic: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment  (Read 2237 times)

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2017, 02:09:09 AM »
This is a terrible comparison because none or very few of us needed to be accomplished at a foreign language to get into college or to get a job. Plus, the government has never made speaking a foreign language a national priority.

Still, I'd bet if you were a foreign language major in a top university in the US, you'd be more fluent than an English education major or the like from a SKY school. And don't overlook how many in the US who live in regions with a high Hispanic population are conversant in Spanish.

We needed to be good at math and English to get into college and we need English for our jobs.

I'm not grammar ace or grammar Nazi, but I wonder how well some of us would do? I assume not all of us blew the SAT out of the water when it came to the verbal section.

The point is that people here talk a big game, but given what we've seen, there's little reason to believe that there'd be this huge swath of the population that would be good at speaking Korean if the situation were reversed. Heck, the average American reads English at a 7th or 8th grade level. But yes, they'd be great at a foreign language if the situation were reversed.  :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States

Offline gogators!

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2017, 11:35:39 AM »
This is a terrible comparison because none or very few of us needed to be accomplished at a foreign language to get into college or to get a job. Plus, the government has never made speaking a foreign language a national priority.

Still, I'd bet if you were a foreign language major in a top university in the US, you'd be more fluent than an English education major or the like from a SKY school. And don't overlook how many in the US who live in regions with a high Hispanic population are conversant in Spanish.

We needed to be good at math and English to get into college and we need English for our jobs.

I'm not grammar ace or grammar Nazi, but I wonder how well some of us would do? I assume not all of us blew the SAT out of the water when it came to the verbal section.

The point is that people here talk a big game, but given what we've seen, there's little reason to believe that there'd be this huge swath of the population that would be good at speaking Korean if the situation were reversed. Heck, the average American reads English at a 7th or 8th grade level. But yes, they'd be great at a foreign language if the situation were reversed.  :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States
I wasn't talking about the average American or a "huge swath," now was I?

University graduates as a whole are more than likely better than average readers and if you read my post you'll recall I was speaking of students at top universities in the U.S., which are, for some strange reason considering your opinions regarding Americans, tops in the world. Fancy that.

"The point is" that you're denigrating those who post here on assumptions regarding their intellectual abilities. And yet you admit you're not that good at grammar. I guess you missed the sermon on the splinter in another's eye.

Offline eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2017, 11:51:25 AM »
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The point is that people here talk a big game, but given what we've seen, there's little reason to believe that there'd be this huge swath of the population that would be good at speaking Korean if the situation were reversed

Reminds me of that phrase people used to come out with a while ago about WW2 saying if x or Y hadn't happened we'd all be speaking German now. Um, no we wouldn't.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2017, 12:49:55 PM »
University graduates as a whole are more than likely better than average readers and if you read my post you'll recall I was speaking of students at top universities in the U.S., which are, for some strange reason considering your opinions regarding Americans, tops in the world. Fancy that.

No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education- It must be because the Korean school system is bad and some cultural reason. I pointed out that random Americans can't read English at an adult level and this calls into question how effective our schools are vs. theirs. Then it's college students. Well, it turns out American college students are ill-prepared for college and many are taking remedial courses.

With that evidence, I'm not going to assume that the American school system is fundamentally better or that the Korean system is broken. Sounds to me like American kids could use some hagwon.

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"The point is" that you're denigrating those who post here on assumptions regarding their intellectual abilities.

I'm not denigrating everyone, I'm just denigrating the types that come on here and talk about how dumb their boss is, how dumb the people are, how dumb the country is, and act like they have more brilliance in their head than the entire country of Korea combined. I mean seriously, the arrogance, condescension, and ego some of these posters have relative to what they have accomplished in life is astounding.

Regardless, can we leave religion out of anything we discuss from now on? I believe that violates TOS and its really not something I feel comfortable discussing within the context of debate. If you aren't going to argue the issue but instead insult me on my religious past every post, then I simply will refuse to reply to you.

Offline eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2017, 12:56:29 PM »
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No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education-

The Korean English education system is geared towards a written multiple choice, reading, listening and grammar test. From middle school onwards English lessons are conducted mostly in Korean and do not require the students to produce any language. Of course the students' speaking skills are going to be sub par.   

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2017, 01:04:10 PM »
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No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education-

The Korean English education system is geared towards a written multiple choice, reading, listening and grammar test. From middle school onwards English lessons are conducted mostly in Korean and do not require the students to produce any language. Of course the students' speaking skills are going to be sub par.

Fortunately we have an objective measurement to determine South Korean students' English skill and thus evaluate their effectiveness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index

For being a non-Indo European language and a non-former British colony, Korea does remarkably well. Heck, they do better than France. Could things get better? Sure. Look for ways to improve. Are things the catastrophe that people here make them out to be? Not at all.

Only on waygook.org would people reject signs that they are actually being successful at their jobs and have done good work in favor of bashing the host country. At what point does your hate and/or desperation for status become such that you want people to think you've done badly at your job?

Shouldn't we be celebrating this level of proficiency and our role in that?

Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2017, 02:25:41 PM »
For being a non-Indo European language and a non-former British colony, Korea does remarkably well. Heck, they do better than France.

Your point is well taken, but part of the reason why this is so is because the use of the English language is actively *discouraged* in many circles. Far more so than here in Korea.

Offline eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 02:42:55 PM »
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No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education-

The Korean English education system is geared towards a written multiple choice, reading, listening and grammar test. From middle school onwards English lessons are conducted mostly in Korean and do not require the students to produce any language. Of course the students' speaking skills are going to be sub par.

Fortunately we have an objective measurement to determine South Korean students' English skill and thus evaluate their effectiveness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index

For being a non-Indo European language and a non-former British colony, Korea does remarkably well. Heck, they do better than France. Could things get better? Sure. Look for ways to improve. Are things the catastrophe that people here make them out to be? Not at all.

Only on waygook.org would people reject signs that they are actually being successful at their jobs and have done good work in favor of bashing the host country. At what point does your hate and/or desperation for status become such that you want people to think you've done badly at your job?

Shouldn't we be celebrating this level of proficiency and our role in that?

Yes, we all know Koreans are very good at taking tests. Especially online ones they select themselves to do.

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The EF English Proficiency Index has been criticized for its lack of representative sampling in each country.[11] [12] The report states that participants in the tests are self-selected and must have access to the internet. It is an online survey rather than a statistically valid sampling of the population.

I was talking about the average high schooler (non hagwan attendee) who can only say 'computer' when asked what he did at the weekend. Who are you talking about?


Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2017, 03:13:58 PM »
For being a non-Indo European language and a non-former British colony, Korea does remarkably well. Heck, they do better than France.

Your point is well taken, but part of the reason why this is so is because the use of the English language is actively *discouraged* in many circles. Far more so than here in Korea.

Really? According to the haters, merely speaking English is cause for an ajosshi to start screaming at you or for a Korean to get labeled a 'traitor to the Han' or some such crap.

Yes, we all know Koreans are very good at taking tests. Especially online ones they select themselves to do.

I think this is a subtle bias that frankly isn't fair. If Koreans do well, it's because 'they are good at taking tests'. If they do poorly, it's obviously because of their education system or whatever. Meanwhile if we do well at a test, it's due to our creativity and education system. If we do poorly, well that's just because it's those 'robotic' Asians memorizing a test.

How about this- the Koreans did well, as simple as that.

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The EF English Proficiency Index has been criticized for its lack of representative sampling in each country.[11] [12] The report states that participants in the tests are self-selected and must have access to the internet. It is an online survey rather than a statistically valid sampling of the population.

Okay, but that applies to all countries.

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I was talking about the average high schooler (non hagwan attendee) who can only say 'computer' when asked what he did at the weekend. Who are you talking about?

Shyness and proficiency are not the same thing. This may come as a shock to you, but the average high schooler doesn't want to have an extended chat with their teacher or be the center of attention in class while he gives a 5 minute report on his weekend and has to make up a bunch of B.S. when the answer is "me and my friends skipped hagwon and snuck out with the girls and all drank, smoked cigarettes and went to some 'no questions asked' noraebang. Sorry, Noraeyeonseupjang."

That's why there is testing. It tends to correct for such factors as peer pressure, shyness, and so on.

Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 03:22:58 PM »
Your point is well taken, but part of the reason why this is so is because the use of the English language is actively *discouraged* in many circles. Far more so than here in Korea.
Really? According to the haters, merely speaking English is cause for an ajosshi to start screaming at you or for a Korean to get labeled a 'traitor to the Han' or some such crap.
Well, haters are usually not worth listening to anyway.
The only folk I can possibly imagine doing this would be elderly, embittered individuals and those who in doing so profit either monetarily or socially.
And of course, students who don't want to study.  :smiley:

Offline gogators!

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2017, 03:30:12 PM »
University graduates as a whole are more than likely better than average readers and if you read my post you'll recall I was speaking of students at top universities in the U.S., which are, for some strange reason considering your opinions regarding Americans, tops in the world. Fancy that.

No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education

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"The point is" that you're denigrating those who post here on assumptions regarding their intellectual abilities.

I'm not denigrating everyone, I'm just denigrating the types...

Regardless, can we leave religion out of anything we discuss from now on? I believe that violates TOS and its really not something I feel comfortable discussing.
1. They were referring to their students and students who have take standardized tests.
2. You can see the obvious paradox (untruth) in your statements.
3. All things considered (c.f. #2 above), I can understand why you would be uncomfortable discussing the subject.

Offline gogators!

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2017, 03:31:57 PM »
Quote
No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education-

The Korean English education system is geared towards a written multiple choice, reading, listening and grammar test. From middle school onwards English lessons are conducted mostly in Korean and do not require the students to produce any language. Of course the students' speaking skills are going to be sub par.
Don't forget writing.

Offline gogators!

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2017, 03:37:31 PM »
Quote
No, but people here are talking about how random Korean people can't speak English well despite all this education-

The Korean English education system is geared towards a written multiple choice, reading, listening and grammar test. From middle school onwards English lessons are conducted mostly in Korean and do not require the students to produce any language. Of course the students' speaking skills are going to be sub par.

Fortunately we have an objective measurement to determine South Korean students' English skill and thus evaluate their effectiveness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index

For being a non-Indo European language and a non-former British colony, Korea does remarkably well. Heck, they do better than France. Could things get better? Sure. Look for ways to improve. Are things the catastrophe that people here make them out to be? Not at all.

Only on waygook.org would people reject signs that they are actually being successful at their jobs and have done good work in favor of bashing the host country. At what point does your hate and/or desperation for status become such that you want people to think you've done badly at your job?

Shouldn't we be celebrating this level of proficiency and our role in that?
A half-point higher--big deal. How much more does Korea spend on English education than France (and Italy).

And these were test scores, and though you don't want to admit it, test scores are the most important thing in a Korean student's life and is the fundamental component of schooling here.

Perspective, brother, perspective.

Offline eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2017, 04:19:58 PM »
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Shyness and proficiency are not the same thing. This may come as a shock to you, but the average high schooler doesn't want to have an extended chat with their teacher or be the center of attention in class while he gives a 5 minute report on his weekend and has to make up a bunch of B.S. when the answer is "me and my friends skipped hagwon and snuck out with the girls and all drank, smoked cigarettes and went to some 'no questions asked' noraebang. Sorry, Noraeyeonseupjang."

That's why there is testing. It tends to correct for such factors as peer pressure, shyness, and so on.

Yes I agree, not a good example if you're asking a kid in front of the class - (and it doesn't come as a shock to me Mr Patronising) It may come as a shock to you but some kids, usually those with good language skills, actually enjoy talking to their teachers about what they did at the weekend and aren't all teenage rebels like you seem to think. The other example I gave previously was a better one when three girls had to escort me to the teacher's room in a high school and they didn't seem shy but literally couldn't say anything to me, not for the want of trying. I guess you have an explanation for that as well.

If you don't accept annecdotal evidence, look at the speaking scores for the IELTS exam. (a real physical speaking test) Korea scores better than China, Japan and Saudi Arabia but not many other places.

https://www.ielts.org/teaching-and-research/test-taker-performance
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 04:40:10 PM by eggieguffer »

 

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