December 16, 2017, 11:24:53 AM

Author Topic: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki  (Read 2053 times)

Offline pkjh

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2017, 07:20:01 PM »
If it was a war of conquest, why isn't Japan an American territory?
Economically Japan is very dependent on the USA. Also, they are a staunch ally of the US, something the US wanted after the WWII. Conquest, ally, friendly nation, economic dependent...

Offline Aurata

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2017, 08:06:51 PM »
People die in wars. Japan knew that when it started the whole shebang.

Now you're parroting a simplistic american propaganda narrative.

In reality America forced the Japanese into war to survive.

Lets see. Prior to pearl harbour, Washington had.....:


1. Frozen all Japanese assets

2. Embargoed oil and gasoline exports to Japan (devastating because oil was Japan's most crucial import, and 80% of it came from the US

3. Closed the Panama canal to Japanese shipping

4. Embargoed metal shipments to Japan (devastating because 93% of copper and 74% of iron came from the US).


These actions not only encouraged Japan to seize parts of Asia to meet their resource needs, it also made war with the US an inevitability.


Quote
why isn't Japan an American territory?

Its just another puppet state of Washington. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 08:09:05 PM by Aurata »
Imagine your Korea...

Online zola

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2017, 08:22:09 PM »
People die in wars. Japan knew that when it started the whole shebang.

Now you're parroting a simplistic american propaganda narrative.

In reality America forced the Japanese into war to survive.

Lets see. Prior to pearl harbour, Washington had.....:


1. Frozen all Japanese assets

2. Embargoed oil and gasoline exports to Japan (devastating because oil was Japan's most crucial import, and 80% of it came from the US

3. Closed the Panama canal to Japanese shipping

4. Embargoed metal shipments to Japan (devastating because 93% of copper and 74% of iron came from the US).


These actions not only encouraged Japan to seize parts of Asia to meet their resource needs, it also made war with the US an inevitability.


Quote
why isn't Japan an American territory?

Its just another puppet state of Washington.

Yip. Their plan worked beautifully. And?
 America played the Japanese like a fiddle and now 70 years later they are still perhaps the US's staunchest ally, or puppet as you say. It was carried out with perfection. Pity Russia couldnt pull that off. Any country they went near loathes them even to this day.
Sucks to be you i guess.

Online gogators!

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2017, 08:46:25 PM »
If it was a war of conquest, why isn't Japan an American territory?
Economically the world is very dependent on the USA.
FIFY.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2017, 11:10:25 PM »
I suspect Japan was not that naive.

If it was a war of conquest, why isn't Japan an American territory?

Actually Japan wasn't naive, they just seriously miscalculated.

Japan essentially became an American vassal state.

Offline Aurata

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2017, 11:25:29 PM »
I suspect Japan was not that naive.

If it was a war of conquest, why isn't Japan an American territory?

Actually Japan wasn't naive, they just seriously miscalculated.

Japan essentially became an American vassal state.


Quote
Japan, just a puppet of America?


Client State: Japan in the American Embrace, by Gavan McCormack. New York: Verso Press, 2007, 246 pp., $29.95 (paper)


In trying to become the Great Britain of Asia, Japan is casting off its security constraints and trying to meet U.S. demands, but in doing so is alienating China and both Koreas. Moreover, despite accommodating U.S. demands, it’s views are ignored and counsel unsolicited on matters of importance. In this unequal alliance, Japan is treated like a vassal and used as an ATM.

“Client State’s” central thesis is that Japan is a puppet state, one that emerged during the U.S. Occupation 1945-52. McCormack points out that the three key issues at that time — the role of the emperor, the role of the military and relations with Asian neighbors — remain “vexed and unresolved.”

Like Noam Chomsky and Chalmers Johnson, McCormack challenges the dominant narrative and underlying assumptions, raising serious questions about the nature of the U.S.-Japan relationship that are often buried behind nostrums about “the most important alliance bar none.” He writes, “The Koizumi-Abe ‘revolution’ actually meant the liquidation of some important residual levers of Japanese autonomy, and the acceptance of an even higher level of submission and exploitation within the U.S. global empire.”



What can Japan do? With inequality rising, employment ever less secure, and 15 percent of the population living below the poverty line, neither Koizumi’s postal privatization or Abe’s emphasis on constitutional revision and patriotic education seem the right prescriptions for what ails the nation. Nor is spending vast sums of money — an estimated $26 billion over 10 years — to relocate U.S. bases.

Perhaps the most ominous development from McCormack’s perspective is the “2005/06 agreement to the fusion of command and intelligence between Japanese and U.S. forces.” This agreement effectively subordinates Japan to U.S. strategic leadership and commits it to collective defense, one of the remaining security taboos that Washington has been eager to eliminate. Richard Armitage, former deputy secretary of State, is portrayed as a bullying proconsul repeatedly intervening to shape and drive Japanese security policy.


America doesn't have allies, it has hijacked zombie states.

The US parasitises other countries, first by subverting their legitimate rulers, inserting their puppet regimes, brainwashing the populace, then sucking it dry of resources and turning the host into more lebensraum for their multinational corporations.

Globalism is a euphemism for American hegemony. They've been playing this game for a long time.
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Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2017, 11:29:54 PM »
I suspect Japan was not that naive.

If it was a war of conquest, why isn't Japan an American territory?

Actually Japan wasn't naive, they just seriously miscalculated.

Japan essentially became an American vassal state.


Quote
Japan, just a puppet of America?


Client State: Japan in the American Embrace, by Gavan McCormack. New York: Verso Press, 2007, 246 pp., $29.95 (paper)


In trying to become the Great Britain of Asia, Japan is casting off its security constraints and trying to meet U.S. demands, but in doing so is alienating China and both Koreas. Moreover, despite accommodating U.S. demands, it’s views are ignored and counsel unsolicited on matters of importance. In this unequal alliance, Japan is treated like a vassal and used as an ATM.

“Client State’s” central thesis is that Japan is a puppet state, one that emerged during the U.S. Occupation 1945-52. McCormack points out that the three key issues at that time — the role of the emperor, the role of the military and relations with Asian neighbors — remain “vexed and unresolved.”

Like Noam Chomsky and Chalmers Johnson, McCormack challenges the dominant narrative and underlying assumptions, raising serious questions about the nature of the U.S.-Japan relationship that are often buried behind nostrums about “the most important alliance bar none.” He writes, “The Koizumi-Abe ‘revolution’ actually meant the liquidation of some important residual levers of Japanese autonomy, and the acceptance of an even higher level of submission and exploitation within the U.S. global empire.”



What can Japan do? With inequality rising, employment ever less secure, and 15 percent of the population living below the poverty line, neither Koizumi’s postal privatization or Abe’s emphasis on constitutional revision and patriotic education seem the right prescriptions for what ails the nation. Nor is spending vast sums of money — an estimated $26 billion over 10 years — to relocate U.S. bases.

Perhaps the most ominous development from McCormack’s perspective is the “2005/06 agreement to the fusion of command and intelligence between Japanese and U.S. forces.” This agreement effectively subordinates Japan to U.S. strategic leadership and commits it to collective defense, one of the remaining security taboos that Washington has been eager to eliminate. Richard Armitage, former deputy secretary of State, is portrayed as a bullying proconsul repeatedly intervening to shape and drive Japanese security policy.


America doesn't have allies, it has hijacked zombie states.

The US parasitises other countries, first by subverting their legitimate rulers, inserting their puppet regimes, brainwashing the populace, then sucking it dry of resources and turning the host into more lebensraum for their multinational corporations.

Globalism is a euphemism for American hegemony. They've been playing this game for a long time.

In America's "defense" they've allowed the subverted countries corporations to join this and go after other markets. including their own. As long as shareholders are enjoying short-term quarterly gains America is happy to allow its conquered foes to join in the fun! I guess that's progress?  :undecided:

Everyone calls Koreans "The Borg". Sorry, the real Borg is McWorld.

Offline Aurata

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 12:01:46 AM »
In America's "defense" they've allowed the subverted countries corporations to join this and go after other markets. including their own. As long as shareholders are enjoying short-term quarterly gains America is happy to allow its conquered foes to join in the fun! I guess that's progress?  :undecided:


Its useless because Washington forces the host nation to act against its own interests and only in the interests of the US.

The host gradually becomes subordinated to the parasite.

e.g. Washington has forced Germany (another puppet state similarly created at the end of WWII) into dangerous confrontation with Russia as well as hugely disadvantageous sanctions against Russia. As well as accepting all the refugees America creates with its imperialistic wars.
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Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2017, 10:04:17 AM »
- lives in South Korea
- whines about teh ebil American puppet states and expects us to take them seriously

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 10:13:29 AM »
- lives in South Korea
- whines about teh ebil American puppet states and expects us to take them seriously

Not every case of vassalage is bad. In South Korea's case it was perfectly rational for the nationalist-capitalist population in the South to align with the United States and essentially become a vassal. It sure beat the alternative. Many other small countries have had to make the same choice at some point in their history. Perfectly reasonable.

Offline kyndo

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2017, 11:21:15 AM »
- lives in South Korea
- whines about teh ebil American puppet states and expects us to take them seriously
I'm not entirely certain that all all the posters in this thread live -- or have ever lived -- in South Korea.

   Whatever the case, while some of the arguments being made on this thread are just plain silly, it *is* nice to have some somebody playing Devil's Advocate. The process of examining what I thought were ridiculous claims/points of view has definitely refine (and redefine) my own.

   And so long as the arguments remain intelligent / interesting / funny / civil, it's all good.  :smiley:

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2017, 04:15:45 PM »
Yes when you see things from the perspective of an imperialist fascist dictatorship everything really makes a lot more sense huh.

Offline kyndo

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2017, 08:59:26 AM »
e.g. Washington has forced Germany (another puppet state similarly created at the end of WWII) into dangerous confrontation with Russia as well as hugely disadvantageous sanctions against Russia. As well as accepting all the refugees America creates with its imperialistic wars.
Yes, because the good folks in East Germany were so incredibly fond of the Soviets.  :rolleyes:
After having their faces mashed into the dirt by the USSR's boot-heel for nearly half a century, I'm not at all surprised that they're a bit leery of falling back under the shadow of Russian influence.
   And while it's refugee policies are giving Germany a massive headache right now, and while it's true that the existence of those refugees is a direct result of America's crappy interventionist policies, the US certainly does not dictate German  refugee policies.

Anyway, America has been pretty vocal in its criticism of German refugee policies: it would rather Germany focus on creating 'safe-zones' in Syria than do what it's currently doing. Hardly the picture of arm-twisting, is it?
This might be an interesting read for you.

Online Chester Jim

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2017, 09:55:27 AM »

You are like a Mr. Demartino before he learned to read and dissemble crap ideas . 
My favorite is the cultural relativist garbage of the us being a moral equivalent to Japanese who vivisected people for science.    I bet you also think the us is the same as aztecs sacrificing millions of people.

You got pwned, you poor simpleton.

Japan Didn't just want to keep the emperor.   They wanted to keep most if not all of their territories, immunity for war criminals etc..     They were going to wait in holes for the us to invade, so they could inflict casualties and therefore negotiate better conditions for surrender.

Nonsense. You are clueless.

Quote
A Secret Memorandum

It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_weber.html

Like most Americans, you have been turned into a mindless shill of your oligarchy's propaganda.


Go get a brain cell before attempting rational discussion.

I got pwned ?   
Is that like owned? 
Was it when you called me a simpleton or told me to get a brain cell? 
Those are chess moves.   Totally pwned.   Really sophisticated.   
Maybe you mean I got owned, as in you taxed me and gave it to your commie buddies .   
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 09:57:49 AM by Chester Jim »
Bonzai!

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Re: 72nd Anniversary of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2017, 10:02:34 AM »
UNCONDITIONAL:
Quote
not conditional or limited :  absolute, unqualified unconditional surrender unconditional love

That includes the emperor.