November 24, 2017, 03:27:20 PM

Author Topic: Save Free Speech From Trolls  (Read 1536 times)

Offline donovan

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2017, 02:56:48 PM »
Threatening rape and murder isn't "free speech".

"Freedom of speech" protects you from the government for expressing political opinions. That's it. It doesn't protect you from other citizens ignoring you, disagreeing with you, insulting you, or even denying you a platform. It doesn't give you the right to threaten or encourage violence or illegal acts. It doesn't allow you to lie about people either.

It's actually a fairly limited concept.

This is really what I was most interested in getting at when I posted this.

No matter how strongly you believe in "Freeze Peach!" it doesn't exempt anyone from the norms and conventions of typical social interactions. It doesn't negate the expectation of civility. It's just the tattered armour of argumentative arseholes in most cases. And as armour usually does, no matter its actual integrity, it emboldens them.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2017, 03:05:54 PM »
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The first thousand times I was accused of being a politically correct, anti-free-speech censor, it seemed silly. The charge was always in response to some relatively innocuous bit of cultural criticism — like, say, that racism is bad and artists should try not to make racist art if they don’t want to be called racists. Or that if comedians want to joke about rape, they should write their jokes very carefully because rape is very horrible

She's being disingenuous here. Nobody minds her saying what she wants in her column. When people talk about her being anti-free speech they're referring to incidents when people like Tim Hunt got fired for joking about women in labs or Alan Hansen was forced to apologise for calling a player coloured. It's people like Lindy West who start twitter campaigns to set these things in motion that's what people are objecting to. Also if you happened to share an office with someone like Lindy West and you told a rape joke, do you really think she'd just tell you to write your jokes very carefully next time? She'd be trying to get you disciplined or fired within minutes.   

Offline Baby Aubergine

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2017, 03:18:33 PM »
here's my impression of right wingers on here


jeffb14words: verily, I do proclaim, twould be best if our good sir Trump did send the Syriac riff raff & triggered SJWs unto Guantanamo Bay! For tis there that they would be reunited with their torrid compadr(it goes on like this & ends with a Youtube link to InfoWars)

someone else, me probably: wow you sound like a terrible guy. go to hell

CarlJ1933Blood&Honour: Ah, good heavens!! Ad hominem in extremis! I beseech thee, cease and desist immediately forthwith! THIS IS WHY WE HAD TO DO COLUMBINE

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2017, 03:25:58 PM »
Don't give up the day job.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2017, 05:04:13 PM »
I still haven't the foggiest clue what the whole Gamergate thing is about beyond some sort of 4chan vs. feminism feud. Everytime I try to read up on it, it starts going down this rabbit hole of paid-for-articles or some crap and I lose interest.

Offline weigookin74

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2017, 07:48:58 PM »
We've seen on Waygook.org how the classical liberals (or 'alt righters' as we're now bizarrely labelled) politely raise points and expose contradictions, while the progressives tend to resort to childish insults and petty name-calling.

Hardcore gamers are usually toxic and obnoxious. Their behaviour is hardly representative of anti-feminists in general.



You know they want to shut us up and imprison us right?  They are really quite the hateful, intolerant lot?  We've all seen the disgusting behavior of the antifa extremists.  I'm afraid we have many lost people who have been spoon fed lies and propaganda who have been thoroughly ruined.  Maybe in a few years when Trump gets the US economy fixed, and there are good middle class jobs, at least some of them will wake up and realize they been had by their "tenured" professors.  We'll say a prayer for them and hope they return to the land of common sense someday.


Name one "classical liberal" imprisoned for their words.

It's what they want to do.  Britian and a lesser extent use PCism to shut down people or to try to due to frivilous complaints in front of human rights kangaroo tribunals.  US still has strong free speech rights though leftiats want to shut it down.  Bill Lie science guy wants to jail climate change deniers.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2017, 07:56:49 PM »
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/watch-fire-me-fine-me-jail-me.-i-wont-back-down-to-speech-police-says-u-of

Jordan Peterson is risking fines and jail time for refusing to be forced to use gender neutral pronouns. This is a new departure as previously you could only get into trouble for what you said, not what you refused to say. As weigookin74 says it's a question of what they want to do and we need to stop it now.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 07:59:14 PM by eggieguffer »

Offline freddyinkorea

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2017, 08:44:30 PM »
First and foremost I am only addressing the Vidcon quote.  No where in any video of their panel were the panel being harassed.  The only harassment was from one of the panel members to a paying audience member.  I am open to seeing where that audience member deserved to be called out, I have not found any evidence that would warrant such a statement. 

The internet is full of trolls and hate for creators is rampant no matter ones sex.  For anyone claiming ones sex plays apart of this, well I call them crazies.  Lol crazies that actually make more than me being crazy,  I guess good on them???

'Save Free Speech From Trolls'

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/opinion/sunday/save-free-speech-from-trolls.html?hpw&rref=sunday-review&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

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At the online video conference VidCon a couple of weeks ago, the feminist cultural critic Anita Sarkeesian took the stage for a panel on women’s experiences online, only to find the first two rows of seats stacked with her online harassers, leering up at her, filming her on their phones.

Ms. Sarkeesian has been relentlessly stalked, abused and threatened since 2012, when she started a Kickstarter campaign to fund a series of YouTube videos critiquing the representation of women in video games.

In retaliation, men have threatened to rape and murder her, dug up and disseminated her personal contact information, called in mass shooting threats to her public events and turned their obsession with shutting her up into a competitive sport. All of this, they insist, is in defense of freedom of speech, to which Ms. Sarkeesian, with her precise, rigorously argued opinions about the relative loincloth sizes of male and female video game avatars, somehow poses a threat.


It is not an enviable position to be in.

“There are women who have said to me, or to people in my circles, that they don’t want to be me,” Ms. Sarkeesian told me. “They don’t want what happened to me to happen to them, and so they keep their head down and they stay quiet.” Absence is invisible. We don’t even know who has been lost — how many were scared away before they even started. What about their speech?

Refusing to quit, as Ms. Sarkeesian has, yields often invisible professional consequences as well. “Our videos on YouTube don’t get promoted and supported in their algorithms the same way that hate videos about us do, because we can’t have comments open,” she said. “That punishes us.”

You can find disingenuous rhetoric about protecting free speech in the engine room of pretty much every digital-age culture war. The refrain has become so ubiquitous that it’s earned its own sarcastic homophone in progressive circles: “freeze peach!” Nothing is more important than the First Amendment, the internet men say, provided you interpret the First Amendment exactly the same way they do: as a magic spell that means no one you don’t like is allowed to criticize you.

The law does not share that interpretation. “The First Amendment only regulates the government,” explained Rebecca Tushnet, a professor of First Amendment law at Harvard. Does she think there is any merit in telling a person that her critique of your art is infringing on your free speech? “No.”

It’s been a surprisingly effective rhetorical strategy nonetheless. Americans are fiercely proud of our culture of (nearly) unfettered expression, though often not so clear on the actual parameters of the First Amendment. To defend speech is to plant a flag on the right side of history; to defend unpopular speech is to be a real rogue, a sophisticate, the kind of guy who gets it.

“Freedom of speech is such a buzzword that people can rally around,” Ms. Sarkeesian said, “and that works really well in their favor. They’re weaponizing free speech to maintain their cultural dominance.

The goal of Ms. Sarkeesian’s detractors was never really to protect the First Amendment. If it were, more than 8,000 of them wouldn’t have signed an online petition to have her and the GamerGate target Zoe Quinn arrested — that is, detained by the state in retaliation for speech — for addressing the United Nations about online harassment. But they did. (Ms. Sarkeesian and Ms. Quinn’s crime, according to someone who is definitely a lawyer: “pushing for a U.N. intervention (Foreign Agents) with the intent to limit internet free speech which violates the First Amendment of the U.S.”)

If their goal was really to protect the First Amendment, they would have at least blinked when the White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, confirmed that President Trump is considering amending libel laws, presumably so he can prosecute journalists who hurt his feelings.

If the goal was really to destroy political correctness...they would have rallied behind Kathy Griffin and Stephen Colbert and Johnny Depp instead of — by their own definition — “censoring” them with at least as much fury as they generated on behalf of Milo Yiannopoulos and his suspended Twitter account (which was perfectly legal, as per the Twitter corporation’s speech rights).

If their goal was really to foster free public discourse, we would have seen deafening bipartisan support for Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, the Princeton African-American studies assistant professor and author of “From #BlackLivesMatter to Black Liberation,” who canceled two speaking engagements in late May after Fox News aired video of her calling President Trump a “racist and sexist megalomaniac.” Professor Taylor received more than 50 “hate-filled and threatening emails,” many racially charged, some containing “specific threats of violence, including murder,” she wrote in a statement.

Where were the brave knights of free speech when Professor Taylor was being intimidated into silence?

They were nowhere, of course (except, perhaps, on the other end of some of those emails), because their true goal has always been to ensure that if anyone is determining the ways that we collectively choose to restrict our own speech in the name of values, they are the ones setting the limits. They want to perform a factory reset to a time when people of color and women didn’t tell white men what to do.

...Casting the dissent of marginalized groups as a First Amendment violation is the kind of pseudo-intellectual argument that seems reasonable to people who don’t have enough skin in the game to bother paying attention. “Discourse” is good! Sunlight is the best disinfectant! The more airtime we give to irrational bigots on high-profile platforms — the more assiduously we hear both sides, stay “fair and balanced” — the sooner they’ll be rejected by the public at large!

Unfortunately, as any scientist can tell you (for as long as we still have those), more often than not, sunlight makes things grow. Conflating criticism with censorship fosters a system in which all positions deserve equal consideration, no bad ideas can ever be put to rest, and lies are just as valid as the truth.

It’s not hard to draw a straight line from internet culture warriors’ misappropriation of free speech to our current mass delusions over climate change, the Hyde Amendment, abstinence-only education, health care as a luxury and class as a meritocracy. “Free speech” rhetoric begot “fake news,” which begot “alternative facts.”

Offline freddyinkorea

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2017, 09:32:47 PM »
First time watching this dude, https://youtu.be/_BOV2fHifvY  Is there a rebuttal to what he says?

Offline Loki88

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2017, 10:05:34 PM »
I get your point, but it's well off the mark. The progressives are getting in people's faces, while the classical liberals are saying live and let live within reasonable and logical limits. The sea lion is acting exactly like a progressive SJW, not a classical liberal.

It seems to me that progressives are everything they claim to be against, but they just can't see it. The lack of self awareness is astonishing.

You know what? I am going to be serious for a moment.

This is a thread about a feminist who was heckled and harassed at her event. This person receives daily online abuse. Quite a bit of it would be illegal if said to her in person. Just go to her twitter feed and browse. You will see some truly hateful stuff.

Her entire situation is more or less a case study in why law enforcement is too ****** slow to pick up on new technologies.

That people can send anonymous threats and not be a) found out and then b) charged is not a problem caused by the alt right but ineffective cops.

Also, one needs to separate opinions from threats. Heckling someone, video taping them in public etc. are totally legal... creepy as **** but legal.

What her situation is not is anything to do with SJWs, alt righters or politics.

Last note, I am and have been a hardcore gamer since I was like four. The fraction of neckbeards in the community is disturbingly high.

Offline Loki88

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 10:13:46 PM »
I still haven't the foggiest clue what the whole Gamergate thing is about beyond some sort of 4chan vs. feminism feud. Everytime I try to read up on it, it starts going down this rabbit hole of paid-for-articles or some crap and I lose interest.

1. Girl thinks girls in games aren't represented fairly. (Okay.)

2. Girl wants to force her desires onto video game publishing industry. (Okay. Laughable and unlikely but okay.)

3. Revenge of the Neckbeards. (Divided into the legal statements (okay) and illegal statements (not okay.))

The most amusing part of it was that both the girl and the neckbeards thought their opinions would matter to a multi-billion dollar industry.

Ain't nuddin gonna touch dat.



Offline Rumbledy Hump

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2017, 10:57:40 PM »
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The first thousand times I was accused of being a politically correct, anti-free-speech censor, it seemed silly. The charge was always in response to some relatively innocuous bit of cultural criticism — like, say, that racism is bad and artists should try not to make racist art if they don’t want to be called racists. Or that if comedians want to joke about rape, they should write their jokes very carefully because rape is very horrible

She's being disingenuous here. Nobody minds her saying what she wants in her column. When people talk about her being anti-free speech they're referring to incidents when people like Tim Hunt got fired for joking about women in labs or Alan Hansen was forced to apologise for calling a player coloured. It's people like Lindy West who start twitter campaigns to set these things in motion that's what people are objecting to. Also if you happened to share an office with someone like Lindy West and you told a rape joke, do you really think she'd just tell you to write your jokes very carefully next time? She'd be trying to get you disciplined or fired within minutes.   

Telling rape jokes is unprofessional, and someone telling rape jokes at work should be disciplined. Nobody has a right to make others feel uncomfortable at work just because he wants to make a joke.

We live in a society with people whose perception is different from each others. Please be respectful of others and understand that administrators have a responsibility to make everyone comfortable at the workplace. Like I tell my students: be nice and work hard.
But how do I know what to lick and what not to lick?

Offline Rumbledy Hump

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2017, 11:02:32 PM »
Activists wanting to make video games more representative of women and accessible to girls have a right to fight for that cause. Others who disagree have a right to resist change. No one has a right to threaten, insult, or intimidate. These are forms of violence. They are appeals to anger and fear rather than reason. The strength of Western political traditions lies in reason and civil discourse. People who resort to threats to shut down voices with which they disagree weaken these traditions.
But how do I know what to lick and what not to lick?

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2017, 03:43:27 AM »
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Telling rape jokes is unprofessional, and someone telling rape jokes at work should be disciplined. Nobody has a right to make others feel uncomfortable at work just because he wants to make a joke.


That's just your opinion, telling a joke of any kind is not against the law. Who decides whether one joke is Ok and another isn't? You? Lindy West? How about context? What if someone was telling a rape joke to someone who didn't feel uncomfortable about it and someone else overheard? What if the person was just repeating a joke they heard on TV and said something like ' Ricky Gervais told this very un PC joke last night....blah, blah .' and the office busybody decided to be vindictive about it? Not so clear now is it?

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We live in a society with people whose perception is different from each others.

Exactly, that's why we shouldn't be dogmatic about what topics of speech are acceptable and what aren't. 



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Please be respectful of others and understand that administrators have a responsibility to make everyone comfortable at the workplace.

You know that some people have claimed to feel 'uncomfortable' at expressions like 'lame excuse' (disability) and 'I'm doing a Masters (slavery) ? Should administrators have a responsibility to make these people comfortable as well? If not, why not? You said they have a responsibility to make everyone feel comfortable?



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But how do I know what to lick and what not to lick?

I didn't feel comfortable when I read this, it sounds vaguely misogynistic, and think you should be disciplined by the moderators. Fair enough?

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No one has a right to threaten, insult, or intimidate. These are forms of violence.

No they aren't

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1
Violence:  the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy

You can't just go around changing the accepted definition of words to suit an agenda.



« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:04:35 AM by eggieguffer »

Online JNM

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2017, 02:50:24 PM »


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No one has a right to threaten, insult, or intimidate. These are forms of violence.

No they aren't

Quote
1
Violence:  the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy

You can't just go around changing the accepted definition of words to suit an agenda.

They are not violence, but threats and insults can be criminal acts.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2017, 03:34:34 PM »


Quote
No one has a right to threaten, insult, or intimidate. These are forms of violence.

No they aren't

Quote
1
Violence:  the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy

You can't just go around changing the accepted definition of words to suit an agenda.

They are not violence, but threats and insults can be criminal acts.

True but I think people like Anita Sarkeesian who want even tougher controls, should realise that this has caused a lot of problems that didn't exist before. E.g. in this book https://www.amazon.com/Wasting-Police-Time-David-Copperfield/dp/0955285410 a normal copper in the UK goes into detail about how much police time is taken up with accusations of threatening behaviour.  Certain types of people in the UK with nothing better to do spending hours exchanging 'threatening' tweets, facebook insults, and phone texts with neighbours, ex partners and friends. Each accusation requires interviews with both parties (who are often difficult to reach) and hours of paper work.

So, we have to decide if we want man power and resources spent on investigating whether Sharon texted Tracey she was a slag and she was going to get her and vice versa, or not. If that's what we want as a society, fine, but don't be too surprised if the police take several days to come round about your burglary

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2017, 03:56:29 PM »
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Who decides if a joke is okay or not? Your boss. If your boss tells it, then HR. The vast majority of corporations in the U.S. have protocols in place for exactly the scenario you are discussing. They have had them for decades. If you have an issue with those protocols, then your issue is with that corporation, not society, not the government.

And you don't think these protocols are influenced by what's going on in society? People get annoyed by someone like Lindy West deciding certain types of jokes are unacceptable because they know further down the line it'll have a knock on affect on what they can say at work.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Save Free Speech From Trolls
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2017, 04:55:42 PM »
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Honestly? No, I don't. Not really, anyway. Most HR changes arise from situations in-house. It is why each company's standards can be radically different. Lindy West does not cause CorpStar to have sexual harassment seminars for new managers. Bob "who couldn't keep his hands to himself leading to a large settlement" Smith did. Lindy West does not cause CorpStar to require write-ups of every employee who tells a dirty jokes during work hours. Kelly "nobody will work a shift with her so we fire her but she collects unemployment because we couldn't show cause" Lebowitz did.

Well you may be right about how things happen in the States I don't know anything about it. My own experience working for a British Company in Korea was that we had to sit through a sexual harassment seminar mandated by the Korean government at which a lawyer told us that the definition of harassment was that someone felt harassed, nothing more. Ergo,  the office busybody didn't like overhearing your joke (because Lindy West told her all rape jokes are evil) and you are in the wrong, simple as.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:25:37 PM by eggieguffer »