September 25, 2017, 06:56:12 PM


Author Topic: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left  (Read 1646 times)

Online SaintsCanada

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2017, 03:14:28 PM »
The people want socialism.

WRONG

http://www.gallup.com/poll/191354/americans-views-socialism-capitalism-little-changed.aspx

35% of Americans have a positive view of socialism. Makes sense. From my experience about a third of people are stupid, evil, or both.

My post wasn't only about Americans, it was about a trend in Western countries in the past year or two.

However, your poll is old. Here's a newer one, by a Christian conservative organization, which found that 37% of Americans not only have a positive view of socialism, but prefer it to capitalism. This kind of number was unthinkable for decades until very recently.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445882/socialism-polls-indicates-its-alarming-rise-public-opinion
https://www.culturefaith.com/acfi-survey-reveals-details-about-the-ideology-gap-separating-americans/

Politics are dialectic. They can seem to stay rather static for years -- even decades -- and then suddenly erupt into radical change. That has always been the way history works, and it probably always will be.

We are at the very early stages of such an eruption. The people want socialism. The likes of Sanders, Corbyn, and Melenchon will merely be the first-wave of this major shift. This is how history works.

Online SaintsCanada

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2017, 03:23:35 PM »
Just to clarify something: Classic liberal describes everyone who believes in electoral democracy, inalienable individual rights, and a free-market. As opposed to things like monarchy, feudalism, religious law, and empire.

Social progressives seek to continue this tradition to extend those same rights to "all men (and women)". The only people in mainstream American politics who wouldn't fit in the stream of classic liberalism are those opposed to things like marriage equality, or equality in religious freedom, etc. Almost all Democrats and the majority of Republicans are classic liberals of various stripes.

Online SaintsCanada

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2017, 03:34:14 PM »
If by "progressive left", you were referring to socialists/communists, they abandoned the liberals about a century ago in most Western countries except the USA. I hope the Sanders revolution can lead to the same split in USA. American workers need their own political party like the rest of the democratic world.

I believe we're at a tipping point where centrist parties are about to be largely wiped out and the political showdown will be between the forces of the right -- currently represented by the likes of Trump, May, and LePen -- and the left -- currently represented by the likes of Sanders, Corbyn, and Melenchon. And I think the left will mostly win. Either way the center -- Clinton, the Lib-Dems, the French "Socialist" Party -- will be basically destroyed.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 03:39:02 PM by SaintsCanada »

Offline MoneyMike

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2017, 03:38:43 PM »
Conservatives are the welfare queens of online, in that they think everyone owes them a lively debate of their deeply stupid opinions

Says the Marxist.

 :laugh:

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2017, 03:41:21 PM »
If by "progressive left", you were referring to socialists/communists, they abandoned classic liberalism about a century ago in most Western countries except the USA. I hope the Sanders revolution can lead to the same split in USA. American workers need their own political party like the rest of the democratic world.

I believe we're at a tipping point where centrist parties are about to be largely wiped out and the political showdown will be between the forces of the right -- currently represented by the likes of Trump, May, and LePen -- and the left -- currently represented by the likes of Sanders, Corbyn, and Melenchon. And I think the left will mostly win. Either way the center -- Clinton, the Lib-Dems, the French "Socialist" Party -- will be basically destroyed.
Actually, no.  By 'classical liberal' I am referring to those people who have basic liberal principles but refuse to tow the "progressive" party line.  By "progressive", I am referring to Bernie supporters who now call themselves 'Antifa', and fly their black and red socialist flag at pro-free speech rallies while attacking anyone who disagrees.  No offense, but your definitions could not have been further off from my own.     

Offline MoneyMike

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2017, 03:47:38 PM »
Just to clarify something: Classic liberal describes everyone who believes in electoral democracy, inalienable individual rights, and a free-market. As opposed to things like monarchy, feudalism, religious law, and empire.

Social progressives seek to continue this tradition to extend those same rights to "all men (and women)". The only people in mainstream American politics who wouldn't fit in the stream of classic liberalism are those opposed to things like marriage equality, or equality in religious freedom, etc. Almost all Democrats and the majority of Republicans are classic liberals of various stripes.

It sure looks like they should mesh at first glance, but the way progressivism has evolved in the west has pretty much ended any chance of that.

A classical liberal thinks 'treat everyone equally'.

A lot of modern progressives think 'try to ensure everyone is equally represented everywhere, even if it means treating others unequally'. (I'm aware that's not all progressives, but it's become the front facing ideology of the progressive movement as far as I can tell)

Offline AhamSandwich

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2017, 04:02:36 PM »
You both are the same weird mod who was leaving users death threats by PM. You aren't fooling anyone. Carry on creepy dude.

When they congratulate each other, is that considered masturbation?

They/he are pretty obsessed with masturbation. Weirdly incorporated it in his death threats in the same manner he does in his weird comments.

He will ban me and go on rambling about "spunk" "cream" and "rubber glove filled with minced pork" and ban anyone who calls him out on the ridiculousness.

He threatened me about a year ago after i said i wasn't sure about letting young kids choose their gender. Threatened a bunch of users. Only after the username was called out publicly did the mod ban his own alt account. Now he is back doing what he loves.

I see we are emulating Alex Jones today.

Awww did someone notice your weird pattern of graphically describing masturbation?

You wanna make some more disturbingly sexual death threats?

Maybe you can "diss" me and have your other account compliment it  :laugh:



Offline Baby Aubergine

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2017, 04:40:53 PM »
If by "progressive left", you were referring to socialists/communists, they abandoned the liberals about a century ago in most Western countries except the USA. I hope the Sanders revolution can lead to the same split in USA. American workers need their own political party like the rest of the democratic world.

I believe we're at a tipping point where centrist parties are about to be largely wiped out and the political showdown will be between the forces of the right -- currently represented by the likes of Trump, May, and LePen -- and the left -- currently represented by the likes of Sanders, Corbyn, and Melenchon. And I think the left will mostly win. Either way the center -- Clinton, the Lib-Dems, the French "Socialist" Party -- will be basically destroyed.

This is basically how I feel, it's socialism or barbarism from hereon out, like it or not (in the long run I'm honestly not that optimistic of the result, and we'll all be in climate hell by about 2050 anyway, but 2017's certainly going a lot better than 2016 so far).

You all can pontificate about classical liberalism or campus SJWs or whatever on here all you like, but if the trend towards deregulation and free markets continues unabated it will work out horribly for all of us. Think about rights you take for granted at work (here or back home!) and ask yourself why you have those rights. Besides monetary charity and buying influence, do the ultra wealthy as a rule give things away to their workers out of benevolence? Don't you think they'd screw you worse if they could?

Stuns me (well...should do) that there are unrepentant Trump voters on here even now that all this repulsive healthcare stuff is going on, I can only assume you mostly come from wealth.

Anyway, gone off on a tangent here. This thread involves a lot of weird accusations I don't fully understand (am I someone's alt account? I'll be pissed if I am) but it's turned out more entertaining than I thought it would

Offline Arabin

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2017, 04:57:05 PM »
You both are the same weird mod who was leaving users death threats by PM. You aren't fooling anyone. Carry on creepy dude.

When they congratulate each other, is that considered masturbation?

They/he are pretty obsessed with masturbation. Weirdly incorporated it in his death threats in the same manner he does in his weird comments.

He will ban me and go on rambling about "spunk" "cream" and "rubber glove filled with minced pork" and ban anyone who calls him out on the ridiculousness.

He threatened me about a year ago after i said i wasn't sure about letting young kids choose their gender. Threatened a bunch of users. Only after the username was called out publicly did the mod ban his own alt account. Now he is back doing what he loves.

I see we are emulating Alex Jones today.

Awww did someone notice your weird pattern of graphically describing masturbation?

You wanna make some more disturbingly sexual death threats?

Maybe you can "diss" me and have your other account compliment it  :laugh:

Please give us some examples of these sexual death threats.

Offline AhamSandwich

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2017, 05:02:59 PM »
Lolz one account posts immediately after the other  :laugh:

Online SaintsCanada

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2017, 05:03:47 PM »
You both are the same weird mod who was leaving users death threats by PM. You aren't fooling anyone. Carry on creepy dude.

When they congratulate each other, is that considered masturbation?

They/he are pretty obsessed with masturbation. Weirdly incorporated it in his death threats in the same manner he does in his weird comments.

He will ban me and go on rambling about "spunk" "cream" and "rubber glove filled with minced pork" and ban anyone who calls him out on the ridiculousness.

He threatened me about a year ago after i said i wasn't sure about letting young kids choose their gender. Threatened a bunch of users. Only after the username was called out publicly did the mod ban his own alt account. Now he is back doing what he loves.

I see we are emulating Alex Jones today.

Awww did someone notice your weird pattern of graphically describing masturbation?

You wanna make some more disturbingly sexual death threats?

Maybe you can "diss" me and have your other account compliment it  :laugh:

Please give us some examples of these sexual death threats.

Could you guys do the rest of us a favour and just get a room? Every goddamn thread completely derailed by the right-wing and left-wing trolls. You guys aren't even funny, at least good trolls are funny.

None of us care about your prior antics, either. Could you all please try to stick to the topic of the threads in question?

Offline Baby Aubergine

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2017, 05:08:00 PM »
Arabin seems okay but with the others, it's honestly probably best if they get distracted

Offline jddavis7

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2017, 05:13:22 PM »
It's always amazing to me how many political threads get started here. It's clear that it's always the same few arguing the same things. It never is a friendly exchange of ideas, it's always a war between two sides. No one is going to convince the other their side is right. Then someone brings up race/religion and the thread gets locked.  :laugh:

Offline StillInKorea

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2017, 05:16:16 PM »
Quote from: SaintsCanada link=topic=107331.msg712625#msg712625
The people want socialism.

Even if this was true, it would be meaningless.

I think most of our students would like to play games all day and get tons of free candy in every class. They may not have done anything to earn or deserve it, but they want it because they've been spoiled to the point that they expect it.

Likewise, a large number of people, especially young people who have grown up being spoiled and pampered in the Obama and Blair era, expect free money simply for being in existence. They might not have done anything to earn that money, but they've been coddled so much throughout their childhood that they expect it.

Just as I'd deny overly entitled children excessive games and candy, I think the coddled young socialists need to be denied their childish demands for money that they have not earned. Even if 95% of people want something, they should be denied if agreeing to their demands would be counterproductive.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:19:52 PM by StillInKorea »

Online SaintsCanada

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2017, 05:24:45 PM »
Quote from: SaintsCanada link=topic=107331.msg712625#msg712625
The people want socialism.

Even if this was true, it would be meaningless.

I think most of our students would like to play games all day and get tons of free candy in every class. They may not have done anything to earn or deserve it, but they want it because they've been spoiled to the point that they expect it.

Likewise, a large number of people, especially young people who have grown up being spoiled and pampered in the Obama and Blair era, expect free money simply for being in existence. They might not have done anything to earn that money, but they've been coddled so much throughout their childhood that they expect it.

Just as I'd deny overly entitled children excessive games and candy, I think the coddled young socialists need to be denied their childish demands for money that they have not earned.

Socialism isn't about free money. That's capitalism. The bankers who f up and wreck the global economy didn't become poor. They became even wealthier. They essentially sign their own cheques, even after being given trillions of free dollars from government.

Socialism is about changing the priority from billionaire bankers getting even richer to making sure hard-working people (and yes, the sick, disabled and unemployed too) can get healthcare, education, and decent housing.

Socialism is a more meritocritous system than capitalism. Here's a prime example:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/argos-worker-whose-cost-cutting-10663586

Offline AhamSandwich

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2017, 05:31:25 PM »
Arabin seems okay but with the others, it's honestly probably best if they get distracted

You both are one creepy dude. The same creep who left the death threats to multiple conservative posters.

And you are likely a mod given your ability to troll nonstop and post weird sexual crap without so much as a warning being given to your account.

Offline Baby Aubergine

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2017, 05:41:48 PM »
It's certainly an interesting theory

Offline StillInKorea

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2017, 06:48:45 PM »
Quote from: SaintsCanada link=topic=107331.msg712625#msg712625
The people want socialism.

Even if this was true, it would be meaningless.

I think most of our students would like to play games all day and get tons of free candy in every class. They may not have done anything to earn or deserve it, but they want it because they've been spoiled to the point that they expect it.

Likewise, a large number of people, especially young people who have grown up being spoiled and pampered in the Obama and Blair era, expect free money simply for being in existence. They might not have done anything to earn that money, but they've been coddled so much throughout their childhood that they expect it.

Just as I'd deny overly entitled children excessive games and candy, I think the coddled young socialists need to be denied their childish demands for money that they have not earned.

Socialism isn't about free money. That's capitalism. The bankers who f up and wreck the global economy didn't become poor. They became even wealthier. They essentially sign their own cheques, even after being given trillions of free dollars from government.

Socialism is about changing the priority from billionaire bankers getting even richer to making sure hard-working people (and yes, the sick, disabled and unemployed too) can get healthcare, education, and decent housing.

Socialism is a more meritocritous system than capitalism. Here's a prime example:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/argos-worker-whose-cost-cutting-10663586

Socialism absolutely is about free money, or free wealth to be more precise. It's bred in part by laziness and in part by jealousy.

A lot of wealthy people are wealthy on merit. My Dad basically gave up his life for his business. He has had no life for the past twenty years because he's devoted it entirely to his job. I'm talking work days longer than twelve hours. There's no damn way he'd do that for the money earned at a standard 9-5 job.

What do you think would happen if all the money earned by the people whose hard work builds the economy was further diverted to those who do nothing or the bare minimum? Having seen how much it wore down my Dad, I'm confident in assuring you that the country would be a lot less productive, akin more to Soviet Russia than the wildly successful capitalist countries that dominate the world.

The UK has far too much welfare already. Those who are able to work should get nothing from the state if all that prevents them from working is their sheer laziness. Of course, the progressive left loves making excuses, coddling, and dragging everyone down to the level of society's lowest, so long as it makes everyone equally miserable.


Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2017, 06:50:22 PM »
It's always amazing to me how many political threads get started here. It's clear that it's always the same few arguing the same things. It never is a friendly exchange of ideas, it's always a war between two sides. No one is going to convince the other their side is right. Then someone brings up race/religion and the thread gets locked.  :laugh:



"Remember this when you run your own place: that type guy, hanging around, gets people agitated, forces 'em to take a position, one side or the other. And agitation brings a slight bump-up in whiskey sales but the sale of **** plummets. That's why I often wonder if I should take that f****** picture of Lincoln down."- Al Swearengen

Donald Trump is that kind of guy.

As far as waygook.org, agitation does bring a slight bump up in site visits, but the sale of job postings plummets. Come to think of it, I might be that kind of sort as well...

Offline Baby Aubergine

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Re: Classical Liberals Abandoning The "Progressive" Left
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2017, 08:06:00 PM »
My Dad basically gave up his life for his business. He has had no life for the past twenty years because he's devoted it entirely to his job. I'm talking work days longer than twelve hours. There's no damn way he'd do that for the money earned at a standard 9-5 job.

And look at what he spawned, god what a terrible waste of his time and money

 

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