August 19, 2017, 06:10:15 PM


Author Topic: Why Korean is less scientific than English  (Read 2725 times)

Offline kyndo

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 03:09:29 PM »
Some languages have lower information rates than others.
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/why-do-japanese-people-talk-so-fast/

Korean is the most like Japanese of the languages in the study. Even though Japanese is spoken the fastest (most syllables per second) it has the lowest information rate. What could be communicated in ten minutes in English would take about 15 minutes in Japanese. Maybe that is one reason why Koreans and Japanese study more hours- they must deal with a lower signal to noise ratio.
   Nope.
   Regardless of language, verbal information is passed along at more or less the same rate: those languages with a lower info density have higher rates of speech.
    This is because the rate of information flow is a reflection of human thought processes, and as we all know, this is more or less the same the world over (only ignorant racists would argue otherwise).

Quote
It seems that humans may be naturally and universally self-regulating when it comes to communicating through speech. There is a balance that cannot be disturbed: fast syllables are not allowed to carry too much meaning, and syllables with lots of information must be spoken slowly.

This is an interesting source if you want to know more about how information is passed along with respect to the speed and informational density of various languages.

So judging by that benchmark, English was the most "scientific" of the languages studied. Efficiency is why. Too bad Korean wasn't in that study. (Not a major world language so it was ignored I guess.) Korean is slightly less information dense than Japanese I'd say, as its grammar is a bit more convoluted.
  Again, no. What good is a language if it takes forever and a half to learn it properly? Chinese Hanja is incredibly information dense, but students are still learning every-day vocabulary in highschool. Likewise, to master English, we need to know incredibly vast amounts of vocabulary and grammar because English is an exceptional (pun!) language when it comes to exceptions.

As an aside, I also think that before we discuss this any further we need to define what is meant by 'scientific' as I don't feel that it is the same as 'efficient'.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:14:47 PM by kyndo »

Offline CDW

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2017, 03:26:20 PM »
Some languages have lower information rates than others.
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/why-do-japanese-people-talk-so-fast/

Korean is the most like Japanese of the languages in the study. Even though Japanese is spoken the fastest (most syllables per second) it has the lowest information rate. What could be communicated in ten minutes in English would take about 15 minutes in Japanese. Maybe that is one reason why Koreans and Japanese study more hours- they must deal with a lower signal to noise ratio.
   Nope.
   Regardless of language, verbal information is passed along at more or less the same rate: those languages with a lower info density have higher rates of speech.
    This is because the rate of information flow is a reflection of human thought processes, and as we all know, this is more or less the same the world over (only ignorant racists would argue otherwise).
Whatever. Speaking faster did not fully compensate for having a lower information density in the study.

Quote
This is an interesting source if you want to know more about how information is passed along with respect to the speed and informational density of various languages.
Yes, it is interesting especially since it contradicts your claims.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:34:44 PM by CDW »

Offline kobayashi

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2017, 03:38:32 PM »
Nope.
Regardless of language, verbal information is passed along at more or less the same rate: those languages with a lower info density have higher rates of speech.
This is because the rate of information flow is a reflection of human thought processes, and as we all know, this is more or less the same the world over (only ignorant racists would argue otherwise).

nope.

did you even read the link? Japanese had the lowest information rate.

Quote
Now let's combine Information Density and Syllabic Rate to get the "Information Rate." Compared to all the other languages in this study, the Japanese language actually communicates information more slowly than everyone else. It is four standard deviations away from the norm which is quite a bit considering that the second slowest, German, is only 1.5 standard deviations out.

Offline JNM

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2017, 06:31:15 PM »
Scientific?

What a strange word to use.

Does anybody know the Korean word the original author used for this?


Offline CO2

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 06:34:22 PM »
Scientific?

What a strange word to use.

Does anybody know the Korean word the original author used for this?
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Offline cjszk

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Offline kyndo

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 11:42:59 AM »
Did you even read the link? Japanese had the lowest information rate.
Yes I did read the link, thanks for posting it!
I wasn't saying that there aren't any difference at all in information rates. I was trying tosay that differences in information density are mitigated by differences in rate of speech. Clearly there are differences, but they aren't as great as what information density would lead one to assume. Maybe I shouldn't have said 'more or less the same', but the difference between .5 and .75 is pretty substantial (when looking at English and Japanese). That was my point. Apologies if I didn't convey it clearly.

    With respect to the experiment from which those numbers were derived, I feel that there is a bit of a flaw: the articles which people read were all translated directly from English. Translations often result in awkward sentence structures (which is what several of the comments pointed out). It's possible that had the experiment designers used articles originating from that language, the results would be slightly different. As it is, I think that their experimental design might skew information rates in English's favour.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 11:45:24 AM by kyndo »

Offline thisneverworks

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2017, 05:20:35 PM »

"I like cats" is three syllables, 我喜欢猫 is four and 저는 고양이들을 좋아해요 is eleven."

1. 들 is optional in Korean, and only added for emphasis.
2. 저는 is also optional in most cases as long as it's clear you're talking about yourself.
Alternatively, it can be contracted to 전 
3. 을/를 이/가 can be dropped and the sentence can still be understood. And often are dropped in spoken conversation. 
3. 요 is only for politeness and can be dropped without changing the meaning. 
4. 좋다 can also used to mean "like"


So "I like cats" could also be written: 고야이 좋아. Now it's five syllables.

Of course you make make it much longer for no reason. Just like you can in English.

저는 세계의 동물들 중에 고양이는 특히 마음에 듭니다.
Of all the animals in the world, I especially like cats the most.




Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2017, 05:45:26 PM »
Are you aware the above Korean sentence is longer than the English one? 22 syllables vs. 18?

고양이 좋아 means cats are good; 고양이 좋아해 would be I like cats...but the first might be used if there's an understanding in meaning. A bit vague though. A kid writing unconjugated would say 고양이를 좋아한다. 8 syllables compared to 3 for English.  It does take longer to say or write something in Korean vs English and it can be quantified. Go to a K-pop chart. Get the top ten songs. Count the Korean syllables. Then count the syllables of the accompanying English translation.

Offline kyndo

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2017, 06:02:06 PM »
   And of course, none of this takes into account syllabic complexity (English has more complex syllables than Korean, which in turn is more complex than Japanese).
     And there are also additional systems of information transfer than just syllables such as intonation and stress: Korean is a fixed stress language, while English is a variable stress language where the patterns are lexical (they must be memorised as part of the pronunciation of an individual word). In English, where the stress falls can radically change the meaning of the word (Presently, I will present my present). This doesn't seem to be the case in Korean.

Here's a cool bit of research about the different ways in which Korean and English language learners approach word and sentence stress.

Offline CO2

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2017, 06:12:03 PM »
And of course, none of this takes into account syllabic complexity (English has more complex syllables than Korean, which in turn is more complex than Japanese).

My favourite example is 스트라이크 vs strike. 5 vs 1.

I understand the language differences and I forgive a lot of the f/p, z/j, b/v nonsense, but I really can't stand the extra uhhhhhhhhhhhhhs in and after everything, especially when it sounds like they're adding it in for effect. Ah, One Pisuhhhhhhh, ijuhh good!

and the 이 on fish and sandwich.

UGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:18:39 PM by CO2 »
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Offline #basedcowboyshirt

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2017, 06:18:27 PM »
And of course, none of this takes into account syllabic complexity (English has more complex syllables than Korean, which in turn is more complex than Japanese).

My favourite example is 스트라이크 vs strike. 5 vs 1.

I understand the language differences and I forgive a lot of the f/p, z/j, b/v nonsense, but I really can't stand the extra uhhhhhhhhhhhhhs in and after everything.

and the 이 on fish and sandwich.

UGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Depending on who's doing the uhhhhhh / khhhhhhhhhhh sound, it doesn't bother me at all. But if it's someone who I dislike it really sticks out and drives me nuts.

I also don't fuss too much about confusing consonants, but the 이 on the end of words also bothers me probably more than it should.

Offline grey

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2017, 06:19:27 PM »
And of course, none of this takes into account syllabic complexity (English has more complex syllables than Korean, which in turn is more complex than Japanese).

My favourite example is 스트라이크 vs strike. 5 vs 1.

I understand the language differences and I forgive a lot of the f/p, z/j, b/v nonsense, but I really can't stand the extra uhhhhhhhhhhhhhs in and after everything, especially when it sounds like they're adding it in for effect. Ah, One Pisuhhhhhhh, ijuhh good!

and the 이 on fish and sandwich.

UGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I think the Japanese addition of 'oh' sounds is much cuter.
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Offline CO2

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2017, 06:31:08 PM »
Depending on who's doing the uhhhhhh / khhhhhhhhhhh sound, it doesn't bother me at all. But if it's someone who I dislike it really sticks out and drives me nuts.

Well, obviously, if she's saying 예스~~~~~~~~~~ 예스~~~~~~~~~~~, it's hard to get upset.
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Offline thisneverworks

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2017, 10:58:43 AM »
Are you aware the above Korean sentence is longer than the English one? 22 syllables vs. 18?

고양이 좋아 means cats are good; 고양이 좋아해 would be I like cats...but the first might be used if there's an understanding in meaning. A bit vague though. A kid writing unconjugated would say 고양이를 좋아한다. 8 syllables compared to 3 for English.  It does take longer to say or write something in Korean vs English and it can be quantified. Go to a K-pop chart. Get the top ten songs. Count the Korean syllables. Then count the syllables of the accompanying English translation.

You started off by saying that you regretted wasting so much time studying Korean. But I'm surprised you haven't discovered that 좋다 can also mean like and is used more often than 좋아하다.  It's just how to say you like something in Korean, say it is good, by implication, you like it. 

좋다 means good, yes. 좋아하다 is the action verb form of 좋다 so it means to "display or show goodness".  But it has become so common that people use it to refer to their own opinion rather than a third person. Whereas mostly forms like this, such as  기쁘다 would be used for I'm happy, and  기뻐하다 would be used for he/she is (demonstrates that they) are happy because as Koreans have told me, you can't really assume to know what people are feeling, only notice how they're behaving.

So I'd say the most common way is  고양이(가) 좋다. So five or six syllables depending on whether they bother to throw in the subject particle. .

Sure it's longer than English, but the difference in the time it takes to speak or read is negligible.   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:00:46 AM by thisneverworks »

Offline Conner42

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2017, 12:59:10 PM »
Yeah, whatever, I'll post on here. Whether it be a forum filled with teachers or gamers, maybe there's some sort of unspoken law that you can't have a forum without people getting passionate about pointless arguments ^^

For one thing, I think the thing about Korean being more "scientific" than English is due to the writing system. To be honest, I'm not sure what they mean by scientific in this case, but if we're just going by the fact that the Korean alphabet was invented and that it didn't evolve over time like the latin alphabet, then, yes, Korean is more "scientific." So, with that in mind, calling a language scientific means that someone would have had to invent it like Esperanto(which I guess we can call a "scientific" language). But, no, Korean is a language just like any other language that's evolved over time, so the whole basis of Korean being "scientific" kind of makes this whole premise for this kind of argument flawed anyway.

But, it seems like you're arguing about the efficiency of one language over the other, so let's just go with that.

The whole thing about reading a language is definitely interesting. You pointed out how one Korean thought that reading English was easier than reading Korean, and that is something kind of interesting. But I think it ignores the fact on how our brain processes words. The thing is, we don't read words letter by letter or syllable by syllable. We see these words more like images. It's still difficult for me to read Korean because I haven't had enough practice to process all the words yet, but it is easier for me to read the words that I've seen before. Like the word 있어요 pops out to me more because I've seen this word more than a couple of times and can recognize it pretty easily without having to go syllable by syllable.

And about how long words can get...like, I'm honestly confused why we're so hung up on this issue. I mean, words vary in length depending on the language...this isn't exactly a unique thing between English and Korean. I'm most familiar with Spanish, so I'll use that as an example. Yes, if you make a translation between English and Spanish, you'll notice that Spanish will be slightly longer than English. And...yeah, that's about it. I'm not entirely sure what the point behind this is. That shorter words equals a more efficient language? Eh?

Well, Spanish has some conjugations that actually make that language slightly more efficient while also, sometimes, Spanish needs to use more words or whole phrases to convey the same meaning as an English word. Like the word "smirk" can't really be translated between Spanish and English without some sort of explanation and I realized this when I told my Brazilian friend this word and he wasn't really sure what I was talking about. I know they speak Portuguese, but when you put the word through a translation it pretty much comes out the same with Portuguese in Spanish.

So, okay, that makes it sound like that some languages are more efficient at some things while other languages are more efficient at other things. That almost makes it seem like one language isn't more efficient or better than the other; they're just different.

Huh...

I can understand making arguments that some languages are harder to learn as an English speaker. Korean has a lot of features that makes it difficult to adjust from English, but that's the same with any language. My Spanish is good enough now that I have very little problems with properly conjugating words, but I did meet some people who were starting out with the language and it was such a struggle to them. I met one person who didn't even try, he just used the basic conjugation of almost every word which did sound weird but I was able to understand him. It just takes practice and time.

It's not impossible to be fluent in Korean. I've met foreigners who could speak Korean and there's even a god damn TV show that shows off foreigners who can speak Korean fluently. And you can go on the internet to even see people speaking Korean fluently. The reason why there are so few expats who don't speak the language is because they're just lazy. Just put in the god damn effort.

Anyway. there's my piece. Guess how eventful my day is right now...
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Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2017, 03:19:27 PM »
So I'd say the most common way is  고양이(가) 좋다.

Actually, no.

I recently looked at sentences written by Koreans.

나는 고양이를 좋아한다. I like cats. 10 vs 3
나는 강아지를 좋아한다. I like dogs. 10 vs 3

Sometimes 난 was used, so 9 vs 3.

'___를 좋아해요' is 'I like___.

'___가 좋아요' is '___ is good.

'Cats rock!' is '고양이 좋다!'




Sure it's longer than English, but the difference in the time it takes to speak or read is negligible.

Or hear. Or write. Or type. Trust me man, sentence after sentence those 'negligible' differences add up to something big.

Offline JNM

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2017, 03:37:10 PM »
When Koreans say that their (written) language is "scientific", I think they mean "systematic", in that there are few exceptions to rules.

As others pointed out, the writing system was designed by people who wanted it to be easy to learn.

I think they did a pretty good job, but "scientific" is the wrong word.

Offline thisneverworks

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2017, 04:59:06 PM »
So I'd say the most common way is  고양이(가) 좋다.

Actually, no.

I recently looked at sentences written by Koreans.

나는 고양이를 좋아한다. I like cats. 10 vs 3
나는 강아지를 좋아한다. I like dogs. 10 vs 3

Sometimes 난 was used, so 9 vs 3.

'___를 좋아해요' is 'I like___.

'___가 좋아요' is '___ is good.

'Cats rock!' is '고양이 좋다!'




Sure it's longer than English, but the difference in the time it takes to speak or read is negligible.

Or hear. Or write. Or type. Trust me man, sentence after sentence those 'negligible' differences add up to something big.

That video is a pretty dumbed down explanation. But even she says it can mean both.  The 좋아 in 좋아하다 is still 좋다.   It's the same word, just conjugated with 하다.

좋다 good

하다 To do

Textbooks prefer 좋아하다 because it seems more proper I think. Same with dislike, 싫어하다 or 싫다. My first textbook taught me to only use 싫어하다 but Koreans always use 싫다 in speaking because it's faster.  This is a bit of a case of "do as I say and not as I do". Like how I teach my students to say "I want to" but I would say 'I wanna".


And in your example

나는 고양이를 좋아한다.

Even allowing for the different verb, you're still throwing in 나는 and 를 even those can be dropped. So now I think you're just trolling.

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Why Korean is less scientific than English
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2017, 05:18:20 PM »
Trolling? I'm talking about sentences I saw written by native speakers. They used the 'I', 'object markers', and '좋하하다' over '좋다' most commonly.

좋아요 = adjective
좋아해요 = verb

http://talktomeinkorean.com/shows/ask-hyojin-13/

'This band rules'; 'this band sucks' isn't the same as 'I like this band'; 'I hate this band'. It's close though.

 

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