August 19, 2017, 06:07:28 PM


Author Topic: Korean easier to learn than English?  (Read 5570 times)

Offline The Arm

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2017, 09:05:41 PM »
To those getting on well with Korean, how long did it take you to get to grips with 는/은, 가/이 and 를/을?

Every time I think I've gotten my head around them, I really haven't!

Offline Datasapien

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2017, 11:54:27 PM »
I've got 을/를 nailed down but still get confused about when to use 은/는 or 이/가. One day I'll wake up and it'll all make sense  :undecided:
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Offline Davey

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2017, 04:13:59 AM »
Easier to read; you can learn how to read Korean in a day if you put your mind to it.

Not sure which one is harder to master, though.
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Offline englishteacher2016

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2017, 10:35:34 AM »
As others have said, a lot of it is motivation with me.

I'll practice with my korean friends and they're super helpful and  I feel like I'm making real progress. Then i'll try to talk to a random person on the street and the person will start laughing as soon as I speak. It's super demotivating.

I obviously can't speak for all english speakers, but if an english language learner was speaking to me, I would never laugh at them, even if they said something inappropriate or unintentionally funny. I'd do my best to understand them and encourage them.

I don't think people are trying to be mean or hurtful when they laugh. I imagine it's a mix of shyness and surprise. Still, I do wish they would be more patient with us. I think that it's a huge sign of respect to try to learn someone's language. It's not easy, and I wish they knew what we were undertaking by trying to learn Korean.

Offline Mister Tim

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2017, 11:26:54 AM »
I've got 을/를 nailed down but still get confused about when to use 은/는 or 이/가. One day I'll wake up and it'll all make sense  :undecided:

Same, except i doubt I'll wake up and understand it any time soon  :laugh:. The annoying thing is I'm working on Japanese, too, and it has the exact same concept (subject marker vs topic marker), so I get to f*ck it up in two languages.

EDITED to remove a bunch of sh!t that was just rehashing what I already said on the previous page, because I didn't realize this wasn't the first page of a new thread, haha.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 11:29:43 AM by Mister Tim »

Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2017, 12:19:50 PM »
(Cat ≠ chat. Cat = le chat (unless the gender of the animal is clear in which case it can be either la chatte or le chat...))
It's more crap to memorize.  >:(
True, yes, but it's only adding a single binary bit of information to a word that already has 30 bits of information (a single letter in the alphabet can be represented with a minimum of 10 bits if using the standard 60 character model).
Cat in Korean is 고양이. Cats is 고양이들은... or 고양이들이... or 고양이들을...
Again, true, but I feel this example can show you exactly why the Korean form of pluralization is much more effective: it's far far FAR more regular. Try pluralizing octopus... cactus... moose... mouse... fish... person... women... child... country...
Also, the Korean suffixes are a way that the Korean language uses to mark the noun's importance in a sentence. English has its own rules in doing so: either by adding additional words to the sentence, or moving "cat" to a different position in the sentence. Either way, you are adding additional bits of information to the word "cat".


Which do you think is quicker to say, hear, read, write, and type?
In the example you gave, clearly the English one is easier. However, if you used another example -- like say "older sister" -- the opposite would be true.  :undecided:

    I'm not arguing that Korean is easy: it's not! But I do feel that it is simpler in many ways. being stuck in a vacuum for several centuries prevents the bastardization of a language, which tends to keep prevent irregularities from entering into the language. This is changing very quickly these days: I doubt Korean will be as 'clean' in a century or so.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:24:18 PM by kyndo »

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2017, 02:42:33 PM »
I met an English teacher who graduated from one of the top universities in the world. He was telling me about how he could read newpapers in French and Spanish. After a year of studying Korean though he was still in a fog. Still at the beginner level. He was shocked by how little progress he had made relative to the amount of work put in studying.

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2017, 03:36:41 PM »
Which do you think is quicker to say, hear, read, write, and type?
In the example you gave, clearly the English one is easier. However, if you used another example -- like say "older sister" -- the opposite would be true.  :undecided:

If we want to settle this to find out which side is true...well...it's not unanswerable...and it's not equal in terms of efficiency. That would be too much of coincidence. One side will come out ahead. 

Let's look at whole paragraphs- or if you want, even longer excerpts- with side by side translations. If you want a larger sample size choose many sources. The number of penstrokes, keystokes, and syllables can be objectively tallied.

English wins.

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2017, 04:06:25 PM »
For all y'all insisting learning Korean is easier than learning English, can you even speak Korean?

Judging by the expats I've met, the answer would be an emphatic 'no'.

So what makes you so sure your assertion is correct?

Something you read on a recruiting website or in a corny guide book?

Offline JahMoo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2017, 05:30:02 PM »
For all y'all insisting learning Korean is easier than learning English, can you even speak Korean?

Judging by the expats I've met, the answer would be an emphatic 'no'.

So what makes you so sure your assertion is correct?

Something you read on a recruiting website or in a corny guide book?

무슨말이에요 지금? 저 아세요? 실역 다 모르면서 왜 그렇게 사람을 무시하세요?

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2017, 07:39:53 PM »
I passed KIIP level 5, and I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

Not sure if it's my reading or your writing.

'What are you saying now? Do you know me? You don't know all the ability levels, so why are you disregarding people like this?'

This is right? The word that tripped me up was 실역. Did you mean to say 실력?

You've spent a lot of time studying Korean and found it to be easier than English? Everyone I met who insists it is easier to learn than English has been at a low beginner level (and are thus not qualified to make such a statement in my opinion). But that's just been my experience. Yours has been different?

Offline some waygug-in

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2017, 12:34:34 AM »
One thing I found discouraging when I studied Korean was the amount of English loan words.  They were taught as though they were real Korean words, which I found pointless
and silly. 

I watched a documentary about North Korea and found their spoken language much easier
to understand, no slang and pretty formal regular vocabulary.

As far as one language being easier than the other to learn,   I don't see it.

It depends, what end of the language spectrum you are coming from.  (as I think was

mentioned before in this thread)

Korean is relatively easier to learn for Japanese people than English speakers.

n e whey, datz meye tu sentz.

One of the Korean teachers I worked with said that she thought English was a far more
precise language than Korean.   Her English was perfect, by the way.

I'm still not sure what she meant by that, but perhaps it's something to do with the amount of context related things that are unspoken (yet understood) by Koreans.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:43:41 AM by some waygug-in »

Offline JahMoo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2017, 10:47:52 AM »
I passed KIIP level 5, and I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

Not sure if it's my reading or your writing.

'What are you saying now? Do you know me? You don't know all the ability levels, so why are you disregarding people like this?'

This is right? The word that tripped me up was 실역. Did you mean to say 실력?

You've spent a lot of time studying Korean and found it to be easier than English? Everyone I met who insists it is easier to learn than English has been at a low beginner level (and are thus not qualified to make such a statement in my opinion). But that's just been my experience. Yours has been different?

Yes and yes. My spelling isn't perfect, but you got it. I already explained why I personally feel like Korean is easier to learn than English. But just to be clear. I know it's hard. I just think it's a simpler language in application. The rules are more clearlu defined.

Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2017, 12:59:39 PM »
For all y'all insisting learning Korean is easier than learning English, can you even speak Korean?
Judging by the expats I've met, the answer would be an emphatic 'no'.
So what makes you so sure your assertion is correct?
Something you read on a recruiting website or in a corny guide book?

    Good point. But... you can also flip that around too: how many people here can remember actually learning English as a second language?
    I can (vaguely). :smiley:

Which do you think is quicker to say, hear, read, write, and type?
In the example you gave, clearly the English one is easier. However, if you used another example -- like say "older sister" -- the opposite would be true.  :undecided:

If we want to settle this to find out which side is true...well...it's not unanswerable...and it's not equal in terms of efficiency. That would be too much of coincidence. One side will come out ahead. 
Let's look at whole paragraphs- or if you want, even longer excerpts- with side by side translations. If you want a larger sample size choose many sources. The number of penstrokes, keystokes, and syllables can be objectively tallied.
English wins.

    I'm not really sure if this about "winning" or not, but...

    With respect to word count, books that have been translated from English into Korean are pretty similar. Some are a bit higher, some are a bit lower. For example:

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone         English: 76,944     Korean:   77,508
The Nightingale                                       English: 164,610    Korean: 145,728
Little Big Lies                                          English: 142,600    Korean: 120,342

    These are pretty random choices (and a pretty small sample size): I had trouble finding word count lengths for Korean books (I linked the site where I found the translated word count). If you or anybody else can find better/more examples, that would be awesome.

     Page-count was easier to look up -- but then things like font size, page size, illustrations, and formatting would mess everything up. :sad:


     While I'm not really sure if writing in English or in Korean is more 'efficient', coding definitely has a clear winner: English.
Look up the unicode for hangul fonts! Each and every possible Korean syllable block requires a separate designation.  :huh:
      Still, it's probably better than for Hanja (Chinese idiograms): that must be one heck of a project!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:24:00 PM by kyndo »

Offline CO2

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2017, 01:23:23 PM »
For all y'all insisting learning Korean is easier than learning English, can you even speak Korean?
Judging by the expats I've met, the answer would be an emphatic 'no'.
So what makes you so sure your assertion is correct?
Something you read on a recruiting website or in a corny guide book?

    Good point. But... you can also flip that around: how many people here can remember actually learning English as a second language?
    I can (vaguely). :smiley:

Which do you think is quicker to say, hear, read, write, and type?
In the example you gave, clearly the English one is easier. However, if you used another example -- like say "older sister" -- the opposite would be true.  :undecided:

If we want to settle this to find out which side is true...well...it's not unanswerable...and it's not equal in terms of efficiency. That would be too much of coincidence. One side will come out ahead. 
Let's look at whole paragraphs- or if you want, even longer excerpts- with side by side translations. If you want a larger sample size choose many sources. The number of penstrokes, keystokes, and syllables can be objectively tallied.
English wins.

    I'm not really sure if this about "winning" or not, but...

    With respect word count, to books that have been translated from English into Korean are pretty similar. Some are a bit higher, some are a bit lower. For example:

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone         English: 76,944     Korean:   77,508
The Nightingale                                       English: 164,610    Korean: 145,728
Little Big Lies                                          English: 142,600    Korean: 120,342

    These are pretty random choices: I had trouble finding word count lengths for Korean books (I linked the site where I found the translated word count). If you or anybody else can find better/more examples, that would be awesome.

     Page-count was easier to look up -- but then things like font size, page size, illustrations, and formatting would mess everything up. :sad:


     While I'm not really sure if writing in English or in Korean is more 'efficient', coding definitely has a clear winner: English.
Look up the unicode for hangul fonts! Each and every possible Korean syllable block requires a separate designation.  :huh:
      Still, it's probably better than for Hanja (Chinese idiograms): that must be one heck of a project!
My friend is a designer here and he says fonts are the worst, hahahaha. You have to make character specific things for EVERYTHING. 푕? Yup, gotta create it from scratch! 쁚? Yup!

EVERYTHING
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Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2017, 01:30:34 PM »
My friend is a designer here and he says fonts are the worst, hahahaha. You have to make character specific things for EVERYTHING. 푕? Yup, gotta create it from scratch! 쁚? Yup!

EVERYTHING
Any idea if they're required to code for every possible syllable combination? There are a lot that never occur naturally in Korean (like, for example, 훟,흫, and 홓) -- do they waste time, effort, and money coding for that kind of stuff?

Edit: I think I just answered my own question.
Crazy stuff. :huh:

Offline CO2

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2017, 01:32:48 PM »
My friend is a designer here and he says fonts are the worst, hahahaha. You have to make character specific things for EVERYTHING. 푕? Yup, gotta create it from scratch! 쁚? Yup!

EVERYTHING
Any idea if they're required to code for every possible syllable combination? There are a lot that never occur naturally in Korean (like, for example, 훟,흫, and 홓) -- do they waste time, effort, and money coding for that kind of stuff?

Edit: I think I just answered my own question.
Crazy stuff. :huh:

EVERYTHING. hahahahaha
Eating from a bucket, like a human horse

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2017, 01:54:46 PM »

If we want to settle this to find out which side is true...well...it's not unanswerable...and it's not equal in terms of efficiency. That would be too much of coincidence. One side will come out ahead. 

Let's look at whole paragraphs- or if you want, even longer excerpts- with side by side translations. If you want a larger sample size choose many sources. The number of penstrokes, keystokes, and syllables can be objectively tallied.

English wins.

So you actually haven't done any of these tallies like Kyndo did with various novels. You just assumed it and typed it. You formulated your opinion first, and then you sought evidence to back it up and confirm your beliefs.

And you wonder why your employment prospects are dismal.....

Also, the fact that you view language as some sort of competition is a rather questionable outlook. By your logic, if there is a language more efficient than English, then we're "stupid" for using English and should just switch over to that.

For all y'all insisting learning Korean is easier than learning English, can you even speak Korean?

Judging by the expats I've met, the answer would be an emphatic 'no'.
 

Dude, I know Middle Schoolers who have a better grasp of anecdote vs. data and opinion vs. fact and how you test and verify things.

Your reasoning and logic schools are at or below a middle school level. And you wonder why you aren't getting the phat jobs?

Offline kyndo

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2017, 02:12:18 PM »
...If there is a language more efficient than English, then we're "stupid" for using English and should just switch over to that.
 
Enter stage left: Ithkuil!!

Which begs the question: why don't languages self-select for efficiency? Why would us English language speakers settle for a measly 1.09 information rate when we could crank that sucker to 11?

Probably has to do with back-end (and because constructed languages are lame). Ithkuil is super efficient and can pass along information with incredible brevity, but it takes forever to learn. Increasing complexity means more time spent learning it.

    This circles back to to the main topic of the thread: is this true for all languages? Are more efficient languages always more difficult to learn? English has a relatively high information rate, but it also has a relatively huge vocabulary, and (arguably (apparently)) exceedingly difficult grammar. This makes mastering the language very difficult for students (as well as some native speakers :wink:).

    If Korean really is less efficient than English, would that make it objectively easier to learn?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 02:19:00 PM by kyndo »

Offline JNM

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Re: Korean easier to learn than English?
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2017, 02:18:33 PM »
...If there is a language more efficient than English, then we're "stupid" for using English and should just switch over to that.
 
Enter stage left: Ithkuil!!

Which begs the question: why don't languages self-select for efficiency? Why would us English language speakers settle for a measly 1.09 information rate when we could crank that sucker to 11?

Probably has to do with back-end (and because constructed languages are lame). Ithkuil is super efficient and can pass along information with incredible brevity, but it takes forever to learn. Increasing complexity means more time spent learning it.

    This circles back to to the main topic of the thread: is this true for all languages? Are more efficient languages always more difficult to learn? English has a relatively high information rate, but it also has a relatively huge vocabulary, and (arguably (apparently)) exceedingly difficult grammar.

    If Korean really is less efficient than English, would that make it objectively easier to learn?

I think that there is another factor, and it is "error tolerance".

As many people have said, bad English is generally understood, whereas bad Korean is not.

My French is good enough to pass as bad Spanish.


 

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